Releasing the past in order to find myself

Friday, November 7, 2014

A Conversation with a Narcissist (or 2)

My grandmother is terminally ill.  My aunt and uncle have arranged for a family holiday at their home so we can all get together (I assume, one last time, before she passes).  My father called to invite me.  I assumed he would also invite my sister.  She generally doesn't attend family get togethers, but she always makes a big dramatic scene about how she can't afford it (probably true) and that she'd have to take unpaid leave from work (she has a job where you don't get time off with pay).  We all know she isn't going to go, but she makes a big deal about wanting to go.

I hadn't decided if I was going yet, as it is a VERY long drive and would be a VERY difficult trip for my family.  However, my father's family always got together for this holiday when I was a child, I would, like to see them, and I had a chance to say goodbye to my grandmother (although I've made peace with the fact that I probably wouldn't).  My father called me last Friday and was considerate about not pressuring me to go.  He just wanted to let me know.

Yesterday, I received a text from NM (please remember this woman has NOTHING to do with my father's family, except on FB and that this is NONE of her business).  I will paraphrase some of the dialogue for anonymity's sake, but will try to be as close as possible:

From NM: Just a quick question.  Are you going to (town) for (holiday)?

Since my visit to NM's a week or so ago, she has not let up on the texts and messages.  I've received several a day, which is annoying at a minimum.  I REALLY DISLIKE when she starts something with "just a quick question" and then gives me know background content as to why she is asking these questions.  She clearly has an agenda, but apparently thinks she doesn't owes me any explanation and that I should just offer up information.  This information is NONE of her business.  And I can easily guess her agenda: my sister.  The only way she can know about this get together from my sister.  Last summer, for another family reunion, NM had also texted to try and get me to pick up NSIS (at a larger city) and drive her and her (scuzzy) boyfriend (in my already loaded car) to the reunion and let them stay with me.  FAT fucking chance.  

I didn't need a crystal ball to predict that is exactly what she wanted this time.  

I replied: I don't know.  Why?

I immediately got a response back that said something like "NSIS is trying to figure out if she can go.  It'll cost $700 for each plane ticket (meaning boyfriend would go too) and she'd have to take unpaid time from work which would be expensive.)

This pissed me off.  Remember folks, my sister and I have not spoken in TWO YEARS, aside from her occasional verbal assaults, abuse, and harassment that I let "this go", "get over it", or general name calling and verbal abuse that usually leaves me emotionally wrung out, anxious, and tense.  These feelings (and her horribly toxic, awful lifestyle) and a last straw were the reasons I chose to take a break from our relationship.  Despite several tense email sessions in which she basically accused me of being the source of all of the problems, we haven't really communicated.  NM has tried guilting me into "forgiveness" and even last week acts like nothing is going on between me and my sister.  The last communication I had from my sister was two weeks ago in the form of an abusive message in which she called me tons of names because of some comment on FB (which did not warrant the shaming and tongue lashing).

I REALLY can not get past my mother's delusions that I would be in any position to grant a favor to my sister and help her out.  First, NSIS is a grown ass woman who's poor career choices have caused her to be perpetually "broke" (although she always has tons of money for clothes and alcohol).  WHY in the world would I want to be in a car with this person whom I have NOT SPOKEN TO in two years?  Who would that go?  Just a hug and a cry and it's suddenly all better?  And more than that, WHY is my mother feeling she needs to arrange all of this.  She is so out of her boundaries, it's lunacy.    Not to mention, she clearly thinks I'm so stupid that I didn't see her "set up" coming.  That's just annoying.

I reply (because I am acting more "boldly".  The therapist's word.):  What does that have to do with me?

She replies: Nothing really.

I reply:  Then why did you ask me if I was going and why did you tell me about NSIS?

This halts her in her tracks and is not what she expected from me.  I don't get a response for over an hour and a half.  Then this comes in:

She replies: Just being snoopy.  And I don't know why I volunteered the information  about NSIS.  Just making conversation that in hindsight didn't need to be said.

BULLSHIT.  Notice that NM's tone switches her to her (she works in a field where you have to use politically correct terminology and be careful about how you speak.  To me, I can clearly hear her tone switch to "work NM" and switch on damage control.  She's become cold, calculated, and disconnected from me.)  Notice too that she NEVER really seems to care about me, my feelings, or what I want.  I admit, it bothers me immensely that my perspective doesn't even register in her brain.  She just plain does not care, which is hurtful (although expected.  I'm not surprised by this at all.)

Then, NSIS texts about 15 minutes later.  I'm guessing NM told her that she'd need to put on her big girl panties and make arrangements with me herself (and again, the LUNACY of these two women that this is even an option blows my mind.  I feel very pressed upon, very ignored, and very annoyed.  And very confused.  How do they compute this in their brain?  How do they make this work?  I would NEVER think of calling my sister for anything right now.  

NSIS texts: Are you going to (town) for (holiday)?  Just talked to Dad today.

WTF?  Why would she think she is in a position to ask me that information?  And what does it have to do with her?  (I know, she wants something from me, but does she not see that I see that?)  The audacity to think I would even respond to this blows my mind.  It's like nothing has happened, like they expect I'll finally just quit throwing a "hissy fit" and "move on".

I chose to ignore this text.  It is none of her damn business anyway.  Several hours later, I get this text:

From NSIS:  Jessie, this has gone on to (sic.) long.  I miss you and I am so sorry for hurting you.  I need you most right now.

Allow me to interpret this for you:  Jessie, I've grown impatient with your bullshit.  I'm stamping my foot and DEMANDING that you get over your shit.  Because I think I have to, I'll offer you a token apology, some platitude about hurting you and then I can claim I've been the "bigger person" and apologized.  And now, to my REAL point,  I need something from you, I need you to go back to being my cheerleader and support, I need you to give me what I want from you.  It's all about ME.

For the record, this "this is enough" shit really, really, really annoys me.  Like she has any right to tell me what I need to do (and seriously, this is the most emotionally unstable person I know.  That she thinks she has some sort of moral authority to determine when I should be "done" feeling the way I do irritates me.)  After two years, a simple "I'm sorry I hurt you" is supposed to cover it?  And really, this isn't about hurting me.  I'm not holding onto some grudge (which is NM's and NSIS's projection because that's what THEY do.)  I've moved away from a destructive, toxic relationship when I finally couldn't take it any more (that last straw, DID hurt me.  But, it was preceded by so much other shit and surrounded by so much other shit that it just enlightened me to the whole of the craziness).

And mostly in that text I hear: me, me, me, me, me.  I need something from you, I have unmet needs from you, I have something I want from you.  And the thing is, she ALWAYS wants something from me.  This whole business of "I need you most right now." is such a ploy.  She ALWAYS has a reason she needs me, some chaos, some drama, some bullshit.  And notice, she doesn't actually say WHY.   If it's that big of a deal, why hasn't anyone told me?  They can solicit rides but not tell me about life changing events.  (and if it really is that life changing and they actually DIDN'T tell me, well, doesn't that speak volumes?)  And do I really care?  No.  I no longer want to play nursemaid to my sister who refuses to actually DO something about things.  And just curious if it enters her brain at all that I could use some support, a sisterly talk, someone to lean on.  NOPE.  I'm expected to not have any needs.

I am choosing to ignore this for now.  I talked it out with DH, as I would really like to reply to her somehow (but seriously, am I supposed to do this in a text?  What kind of response was she really expecting.  "Um, OK.  I'm all good now.  What can I do for you NSIS?")  The things I'd like to say are:

This is about much more than me holding a grudge.
I haven't seen any reason to believe our relationship going forward will be any different than what it was in the past and that is unacceptable to me.
There is little room in any of these conversations for my needs, my feelings, and my concerns.  And if no one else will take that into consideration, than I'll have to do that for myself.
I have needed time to sort through this and it will not be resolved in the next three weeks (by the time she needs the ride).


Beyond that, I would love to say how asinine it is to think that this all could just go away with a simple "I'm sorry."  Their level of delusion and crazy is actually quite startling to me.  I don't see how they see this going other than reconstructing reality and deciding to just play pretend and travel back in time.

Unfortunately, I can not think of any email (no matter how carefully worded) would yield any positive results.  Almost any email I send will be reacted to defensively and I will be attacked for it (the last attempt I tried ended exactly in this way).  I have seen NO evidence that anything has changed with her and I can not reasonably believe the outcome will be any different from the last time.  This is still a woman (child) that believes it is perfectly appropriate to reduce me to emotional putty, slay be with verbal shrapnel, and then go back to normal like nothing happened and ask me for a favor.  I can't see sending an email as any more than an opprotunity for her to gain ammunition and attack me in return (I feel her anger at me is boiling just below the surface.  She can pull out her "vulnerability" and plead to my conscious and my concern for her.....this used to be much more effective with me, as I always had such compassion for her that I'd do anything to help her.   But I know that Jekyll/Hyde mask is just below the surface.  And despite her wanting to "let it all go" I know her anger and resentment is tucked away for the right time to unleash it.


Any thoughts, friends?  Any advice on how to handle this?  I'm guessing it's far from over and that ignoring her will only infuriate her more.  But I just don't see what response would actually yield something positive for me?  Why anger the beast?

Any and all thoughts are welcome.

25 comments:

  1. Your strength and your answers to your mom's texts had me cheering. And your sister's second text made me LAUGH! "I need you most right now! I need you to take my dramatic toxic ass and my disaster of a boyfriend, put us in your car and let us completely take over that car ride with arguments, snide comments, pregnant silences, and completely negative energy. Let us crowd the fuck out of your car with MY stuff, mental and physical! And buy us snacks and gas. AND THEN, we will be where there is a funeral/deathbed and I can wail and rend my garments and tell people about how much I loved grandmother, how much nobody understands me, about how I should have the best bedroom, how my boyfriend is made of crap but why doesn't everyone love him, and how Jesse made me beg for a ride and then made the ride horrible!"

    Yeah, I can see why you want to sign up for THAT *snort*

    I say ignore. You're right - any response will be fuel for her nuclear bomb of a fire. Not responding at least gives you a boundary she cannot cross. And gives you peace in your world - maybe not in your head, but in your actual home. She cannot get in where you don't let her.

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    1. I decided to read some of the classic horror books during October for Halloween and took up Dracula. I know Ns are always compared to emotional vampires, but MAN, there are many more parallels than just the "sucking the life force out of you" part.
      What you said "she cannot get in where you don't let her" reminded me of one of the "vampire" rules. They can not come in unless you invite them and I think your advice is spot on. Even beginning to invite her back into my life is dangerous. I don't want her to think I'm welcoming her back her AT ALL. I'm willing to keep a small crack open, and peer out once and awhile to see if she's changed at all, but I sure as hell am not letting that back in my life. The physical changes I experience in just dealing with these few texts reminds me of why I don't want to deal with this anymore I tremble, my hands shake, I become teary and emotional. I really do think it triggers some sort of PTSD response in me.
      Because, the truth is, being in her life is like living in the world of the vampire: cold, dark, evil, full of toxicity and death and horror. Her life is SO beyond normal in it's levels of craziness that it's like living in a war zone for me. Watching her continue to torture herself, as she refuses to try ANYTHING to help herself got to be too much for me. And after awhile I had to accept that she didn't want to come out of the darkness and she didn't want to come into the light. So, we are at an impasse.
      I can not even begin to describe what it is to be involved in her life and the utter craziness that one has to deal with (although, with your crazy in-laws, you have some idea). It is non-stop destruction of herself in every way possible. And your description of the car ride is so spot on....except I could see a fist fight breaking out (she once punched me in the head as I was driving 70 mph down the interstate). I would be responsible for funding part of the trip for her, she would end up yelling at me in front of my kids (and we are not just talking yelling, but full on unleashing of her FURY) and then she'd bitch about me the whole time. It'd be MISERABLE.
      The thing is too, she is more than capable of renting a car (she would have to anyway) and she has money to take trips (she just went on vacation). The main reason she is wanting me to take her is that she wants, as if she is a little girl, for me to offer her shelter, a sort of shield from our extended family. She KNOWS that she is not exactly in good graces with a lot of them and I know she wants me to help be her champion. Well, fuck that. I'm done making excuses for her to family, cleaning up her messes, protecting her from the consequence of her actions, and championing her as being something she's not. And frankly, she's a GROWN ass adult. I'm sick of being her mother (especially since she HAS one and it's not my job to cover for her either).

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  2. Hi Jessie:

    I've been reading your column for about 2 years now and really like what you write. Your response to your mother was perfect! It didn't disclose anything and turned things back on your mother to disclose.

    For your sister, can you just do the same? Ignore the second text and respond to the first one, but keep it non-committal. 'Not sure if I am going. Got a lot going on these days. Hope you are well.'

    You've acknowledged her texts, responded courteously and said little about your intentions. Let her do the explaining.

    Keep up the good work!

    -A Respectful Reader

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    1. Hi RR! Thanks for your thoughts.
      Although I think your suggestions are interesting, the bottom line is that my sister and I have NO relationship right now. And since her very last communication with me was an out and out attack, I think it would be a bit disingenuous to reply with anything that suggests we are in an "OK" place with each other (i.e. "hope you are well" or giving her any information about what I am doing.) I do NOT want to even start up a LC relationship with her or give her any indication that I'm just going to ignore all that's gone on. My sister is a very unique "case" and our relationship finally imploded due to the sheer volume of toxicity, chaos, shear CRAZY drama (seriously, you can not imagine), verbal abuse, lies, and manipulations. She has some serious issues she needs to address and I've learned from the past that even having a very low contact/casual relationship with her was impossible at the moment.
      I can manage with my mother better, as my mother can (somewhat) be reasoned with and has enough emotional control to be aware when I put up a boundary (not that she respects it, but she doesn't come at me with both barrels blazing and level me to the ground with emotional abuse). She does not respect my boundaries and continues to attack me in other ways, but she's not nearly as "off the rails" as my sister is.
      I do appreciate your praise about not disclosing things to my mother and turning the conversation back so that I retained control of my end of it. This has taken me YEARS of hard work to learn and I'm still practicing it all of the time. And even with my mother, who is far more volatile, it takes all of my courage to change our interactions.
      Thank you for your thoughts and consideration. Jessie

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  3. What I said when I wanted my mother to go away and stop demanding stuff from me was something along the lines of: "I'm sorry but I am not able to help you and I am not going to waste another minute discussing it." Then I didn't answer any further contact. I do t know if that helps. There actually wasn't much in the way of continued contact. I can't promise that my mother didn't stir up shit on her end, but there really isn't much else she can do to me that she didn't already. I think she knew she had no power over me. As long as they think they have an "in", a narcissist will use it.

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    1. I think you are right, any "in" will be used. Thanks for your thoughts, PV.

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  4. Okay, so my first thought is that you should not respond to your sister - the way I see it, she's likely to get angry, defensive, and inappropriate whether your respond or not. And quite frankly, if that's what she wants to do, then let her. While I LOVE the thoughts you had prepared to possibly say to her, experience has already shown you that none of them will make even the slightest difference to your sister. She does not care about your feelings; she does not care about your needs, she does not know you or care to know you and will likely never acknowledge these things.

    I'm glad that you ignored her first text. The fact that she thinks it is at all appropriate to text you at this point, given the context of your nearly non-existent relationship right now (due to HER past behaviors) is evidence that she expects you to cast reality aside in order to accommodate her - her fantasies, her needs, her reality. She lives in a crazy, fucked up fantasy world and it's a world that you are no longer part of.

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    1. Yes, the fact that she thinks I can just cast reality aside is alarming to me.
      And I think it's this continually being confronted by their messed up reality that had me wanting to say something. That it's not just a grudge, that I'm not just going to "get over it", so leave it alone.
      And I kept having all of these swirling thoughts and I needed to write them down to really consider them. And when I did, I agree, there is nothing there I could say that would end well. She's clearly demonstrated that she continues to devalue my thoughts and feelings completely.
      The further (in time) I get away from the message, the easier it gets to ignore. If she really wants to work things out, she can send something other than a two line, lame, token apology.

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  5. DNR. Opening that door just a crack-and how you would accomplish that feat without experiencing severe cognitive dissonance (and a predictable increase in your symptoms) is beyond my comprehension-and would achieve the following:
    -Reinforce MN "mother" and CBsis' Tag Teaming Tactics so they can
    -Orchestrate/Exploit a Win/Win for them and Loose/Loose for you as well as
    -Reinforce to MN "mother" the reality her covert fighting you every nanometer of the way indeed eventually wears you down enough so you'll give in and
    -Therefore, MN "Mother" again gets to play one of her most cherished roles involving her and Nsis's Folie a Duex CB style: Swoop in and indulge-with your reinforcement and tacit permission-in her historical "Savior" persona so readily apparent over DECADES in her seriously fucked up and intractable CB delusional grandeur and
    -Clearly evidencing how the Past informs and manifests in the Present, i.e., "Bend over for it, Jessie" further
    -Demonstrating yet again the absolute intractability of Character/CB behaviors
    -Reward CBsis for sheer audacity and continuing overt aggressive boundary busting
    - WITH your NM "mother's" CLEAR BLESSINGS and unfailing FULL SUPPORT for CBsis
    -Because once again, your NM "Mother" is SUSTAINING and PROMOTING ALL OF THS, stirring her Pot of endless Plots and machinations that has so informed her CB from your earliest memories and experiences. The pay-off is the Drama and the Supply/Expropriation of All The Attention and Professional Victimhood status: She just wants her "DDs" to get along! She just doesn't "understand" why you won't "accept" your CBsis-because, why, you actually raised her-oops, well not really, not in their delusional re-writing of history-of course your MN "Mother" was a MOTY! It's a helluva lot easier to "accept" when you've effectively washed the filth of culpability off your own hands by hiding behind the put-upon, poor, "Mother" who's being VICTIMIZED-whine, sob, the poor thang, she's SUFFERING because of YOU! She just "doesn't know WHAT to DO!" And once again, MN "mother" abdicates the most fundamental task of ANY parent: Protection of their child-regardless of that child's age. Ex: Your CBsis has demonstrated repeatedly she will stop at NOTHING including physically ATTACKING you to get her way: Once again, your MN "mother" has it all completely backward. And I do NOT believe for a second her behavior in this situation is NOT Premeditated, Targeted and Intentional.

    Were YOU ever consistently Protected? Ever enjoyed such consistent support and encouragement from your NM "Mother?" How 'bout some RESPECT for WHO you ARE, Jessie? As a child you were treated as an adult: Now as an adult, you're treated as a child. Your MN "mother" abdicated her most FUNDAMENTAL responsibilities in every way as a MOTHER to her off-spring throughout your childhood, adolescence and thus far, your adult life and now is *Entitled* to all the perks and benefits of the Label?
    NO IT DOES NOT.
    Just because Nsis is a DNA relative that entitles her to endless do-overs and opportunities to exploit and hurt you and your family?
    NO IT DOES NOT.
    Yes, you do have symptoms of PTSD. And the first task in addressing PTSD is NOT shoving the individual BACK into the same or similar situations that comprise the etiology of the PTSD: Most fundamentally your body never gets an opportunity to begin the process of physically restoring stasis when it's repeatedly exposed to Fight or Flight situations. As children of CBs we were unable to do either: We end up in Learned Helplessness/Frozen.
    DNR: You already know that's your best response and I'm adding a ohhellyeah! Jessie. If for no other reason because you'll never receive that for them.
    TW

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    1. Yes, the cognitive dissonance! I hadn't put that label on how I was feeling. But that is exactly what I feel: I'm being forced to accept a reality that I know is not true.
      Your point that giving in at all is showing them I can be worn down is a good one.
      Your description of what my mother is doing is accurate (playing the eternal victim of her horrible eldest daughter who just won't let go of her childish grudges so that the family can be whole again....and won't let mommy play savior to the family by orchestrating this). She has told me, repeatedly, how much she is "suffering" by all of this (while being unable to hide her secret excitement at all of the drama). They have told me, repeatedly, how it is ALL MY FAULT (I'm holding a grudge -their projection, I'm just angry, I'm unwilling to try, I'm holding NSIS accountable for things NM did).

      No, I have not been protected. When we were younger, and NSIS would physically attack me, I was blamed equally for "sibling fighting". The minimization of what was going on was horrible. NM has continually expected me to lay down whatever feeling or need I have to accommodate NSIS and her whims. As I am the "lucky" one, I should continually be willing to do whatever my "poor" sister wants. Because how dare I have "so much" and not share. How dare I be happy when they are so unhappy? I'm a monster who neither loves not cares about my family (because I don't do what they want).

      I especially found this to hit home "you were treated as an adult when a child, and as a child when an adult." THAT, right there, has always been one of my biggest issues with my mother. She decided she was to "busy" living "her" life to deal with being a mother. She pushed me into adulthood. And then, when she grew bored of that and decided "oops, I DO want to be a mom, I DO want have children to "raise" " she has just expected me to, somehow, magically revert in age to being an adolescent (whom she can control and dictate to). The complete devaluing of who I am, the insult of expecting me to adhere to her "mommy" fantasies infuriates me.

      And yes, I've wound up in Learned Helplessness due to it all and I need the time and space to allow myself to heal. That shouldn't be so much to ask.

      Thanks TW.


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  6. I read the "I need you most right now" as being total bullshit. Just complete bullshit - like she made it up on the spot to elicit your guilt and make you wonder if there is something you don't know. She is so nicely non-specific that she could be referring to anything. She makes it sound as though there is something specific going on right now in her life that she requires your attention to, and inserts this thought into a conversation it has NO business being part of - a conversation that she shouldn't have initiated in the first place.

    In my opinion, she doesn't really leave you with many options. Your choices are either to respond and suffer her wrath, or to not respond and to deal with her wrath behind closed doors, where she won't be privy to how it's effecting you. If you respond, she'll have her "in."

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    1. "like she made it up on the spot to elicit your guilt and make you wonder if there is something you don't know." YUP!

      It is bullshit. But here's how she justifies it: she's ALWAYS got something going on. I've heard this over and over since she was a teenager. But it's just a long line of never ended drama and chaotic scenes that she has created: a move, an abusive boyfriend (or three), being kicked out of her apartment, losing her job, totaling her car, being hit by a car, walking up after blacking out and not knowing where she is.......The list of shit that goes on in her life and that I need to "attend" to is never ending.
      But like you said, it's so non-specific, it could be anything. She's laying it out there like bait to make me feel guilty so that I'll lower my defenses to make sure SHE is OK. What she doesn't know is that if she has something to share, she can do it in any other way than as a last ditch effort in a manipulative, one sided, demanding conversation. I mean, how insulting is that. "Hey can I have a ride? No, you're going to ignore me? Oh well, by the way, HUGE things are going on in my life.....does that work to get you to talk to me?"

      Yes, I'm going to leave the door closed for now. If she wants "in", she'll have to work harder.

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  7. I read through the comments, and I've very little to add, only a bit of my own experience.

    "Unfortunately, I can not think of any email (no matter how carefully worded) would yield any positive results."

    You are exactly right. As I deal with NM and EF, I finally accept that there is nothing I can say or do that will make everything all right. I cannot give enough or change enough to suit them. I will always fall short in their eyes. Ignoring them is difficult and sometimes painful, especially when they escalate their demands. All ignoring does is remind me that there is absolutely nothing I can do to fix this relationship because the the only problem they see is me. How I know their thinking is faulty is that if I disappeared, they would choose someone else to be "the problem." It isn't about me, and it isn't about you. Taking care of and protecting you is your responsibility. They certainly aren't going to do either one of those things for you, even while they expect you to do it for them. Choose you and your family of choice.

    I remember one scene that epitomizes the relationship. It was dinner time, and I sat beside my mother. She asked me to the pass the butter. Sounds reasonable. The dish sat between us. She only needed to reach a couple of inches. It was, in fact, closer to her than it was to me. It wasn't about the butter. It was about asking me to help her. It was all about her controlling me.

    Keep fighting for you.

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    1. I think it is so important to accept that we can do nothing to fix this (and finally quit blaming ourselves for not doing enough/being enough/giving enough). That's a hard thing to do, as it sort of seems counter intuitive to being a "good person" , being selfish and wanting to help the relationship. It made me feel like a horrible person to just "do nothing" finally. But the trying to fix it? That was killing me. I could not do the impossible.

      The example of the butter is an AMAZING example of what these relationships are. I'm sure outsiders would look and think why not just pass the butter to the old lady, even if it was closer to her? But it's this continual "drip" of ways to control you. It's the grooming process of how they control us. And then, when the big things come, like sacrificing completely our needs and who we are, they've already laid down the path to get us there. It's never about passing the butter, and always about firmly maintaining complete control over their NS. Thank you for such a wonderful example.

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    2. What really sucks about it is that when you've been conditioned to BE controlled by them, and you start fighting back, they will often call YOU controlling. And it sucks because, yeah, you DO want some damn control. Power and control becomes the name of the game, but it's SO uneven, with them having 99% of it and you just starting to ask for your 1%. And it's a constant fight. Of course, it shouldn't be about control, healthy relationships are never centered on who controls who, but in a relationship with a narcissist, you HAVE to fight for some or you won't get any.

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    3. And then you're pretty much forced to fight over the damn butter, even though the butter so isn't the point, and when you fight for your right not to pass the damn butter, then you end up looking like the asshole to everyone else at the table.

      I remember having a conversation with DH around the time when we were supposed to see NMIL for Christmas. She called him to guilt him and ultimately, see how much she could make the whole thing be on her terms. She tried to change the time, the date, the place, and who would be visiting. I had to tell DH that NONE of it could be changed. It was the principle of the thing, and it sucked. We couldn't be lenient or bend at all because then she would have won something, when winning wasn't the damn point at all. But it's as though they want it to be - and not only do they want relationships to be a zero-sum game where someone always wins, they demand that THEY are the ones who always win.

      My ex said that too. He actually said it to me. He said that someone always has to win and someone always has to lose and that he always won. (I chalk his admission of that up to inexperience. He was a young narc. I'm sure he learned never to admit that again).

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    4. On control: I spent A LONG time being called "controlling" whenever I asked for something I needed or wanted (or heck, preferred. Although I rarely asked for that.) My choices were to go along with everything all of the time and behave exactly as they expected and to LIKE it or to be called "controlling". It was a really big struggle for me. What helped was to reframe the "control". I didn't want control over EVERYTHING. I wanted control over myself. I wasn't asking them to change, totally do things my way, never have an opinion, or dance around me. I was just asking for my right to speak my mind, have my own opinion, and have some input into things. It's still something I struggle against, but it's gotten better. BIL likes to mention how "easy going" he is all of the time. But now I can see (as can DH) he's only "easy going" if everything is going his way.....as are most Ns. They are not controlling, until you tell them NO.

      On winning: I was speaking with a friend about this conversation the other day and that feelings of "winning" kept creeping into my mind. Like a little voice telling me that I'd finally "won" a battle with her. It really bothered me because it wasn't ever about winning or losing for me. But somehow, I felt like I had. And then I realized that most of that was projection (and some mind reading on my part) from NM. That, in her mind, it is always framed as win/lose. There is no compromise. There is no mutual decision. I did win, in her mind. And it's hard for me to separate that out from my own feelings sometimes. I'm not interested in winning, I'm just interested in not being run over every single interaction.
      And you are right, it really does suck that you (we) have to be so damn harsh about it all. That we can't give an inch, or they will run over us like a steam roller. I'd LOVE to be able to compromise, to come to mutual terms. But that doesn't compute for them. So, by default, you fall into their "rules of engagement". It's all my way, or I consider it a loss, and I refuse to lose. You sum it up well here: "We couldn't be lenient or bend at all because then she would have won something, when winning wasn't the damn point at all." Sigh.

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    5. Oh, that butter example ... One of the many ridiculous things I have to deal with when I'm around my NM are the numerous "requests" for things she could easily do and that make me look like an ass if I don't jump up and do them when she asks. Anyone have suggestions on how to deal with this? I can see it in her eyes when she's about to ask something because she waits for me to be done with whatever task I'm currently doing before she asks. As soon as I stop to take a breath, or god forbid sit down, it's out of her mouth. I try to busy myself with other things when I see that look, but she can wait forever! Last time she was at my house she "made" me serve something she had brought and then I could see her with the leftovers right in front of her waiting for the chance to ask me to put them away. Did she think they'd just sit on the table forever if she didn't say something? She'll ask me to run upstairs to get her some hand lotion, a nail clipper, it's endless. I've figured out how not to play many of her games, but I can't figure out a good response for this.

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    6. My N-MIL likes to make my DH do thing for her that she can easily do herself too. Drives me crazy.
      I think this one is really hard and, personally, the best thing to do is tell her "no". Sure, it makes you look like an ass, but really, she's going to do that to you anyway. It is a continual struggle with me to accept the emotional blackmail and realize I really am in a rock or a hard place.
      Sometimes, DH just plays "stupid": either he doesn't "hear" her or he just ignores her. (This is often unintentional on his part, but it seems to work.)
      If it were me, I'd put her off. "Oh, I can't right now, but maybe in a bit." and then smile sweetly. If you're worried about looking like an ass to others, this might relieve some of that. You didn't say no....just not right now. Or "zone out" like you can't hear her when you are sitting in your chair. Or be completely inept at the task. "Geez, couldn't find the clippers!" Or, in the case of the left overs, "Oh, I'll get to them mom." And then just don't do it. Do whatever you can to NOT give into this kind of crap.
      Personally, I've learned I just have to quit playing those games. Period. Done. I continue to do things for my mother when I WANT to, but I'm not a command chicken. It becomes really hard, like in Judy's case (that one would've been really difficult), but the more I've given into this, the more they ask.

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    7. Thanks for the ideas! She's at my house now for Thanksgiving and I will be trying these. I haven't tried being inept, I like that. I've done the hard of hearing routine with her veiled criticisms, so now I will have to apply that to her commands.

      I actually failed at my first opportunity though. After arriving and saying our initial hellos she put a box on the counter and announced "this has things for the freezer it in" then walked away. I should have just immediately and sweetly said "Well, go ahead and put them in the freezer" but she walked away so fast and I was still processing it, so I eventually got up and put them away, which did at least spare me the comments about the state of my messy freezer. Then she had a mini tantrum after she failed to engage me in a "where should we keep the pies" discussion (as if I'd be allowed to make such an important decision) and I refused to fawn over the pies.

      Now she's acting "hurt" and I'm getting the silent treatment. And I'm the one who feels bad because I think I should be nicer but I just can't muster up the fake nicey niceness anymore. -D

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    8. First Anon, you NM is always going to be hurt. No matter what you do. When you can get past that and realize that you are damned if you do, damned if you don't, it becomes easier. You can kill yourself trying to be "nicer". I say, enjoy the silent treatment while you can. It's a passive-aggressive form of control and you don't need to play along.

      As far as failing, I think we all struggle with the mistakes we make. It's a process and you'll have to work on it bit by bit. Try not to beat yourself up too much. (And as you remove some of your emotional feelings of obligation, it will get easier. Be patient with yourself.) I get the freezer thing, and sometimes it is just easier to do something than listen to the criticism. You sort of have to weigh the pros and cons. But if your freezer had been "presentable" I would've walked away from the items and then said, when she found them thawing on the counter, "oops, I assumed YOU were putting them in the freezer." Sometimes a few "eggs" have to get broken to get across your point. (And really, if whatever it was was ruined, I'm sure you could've replaced it.)
      Good for you for refusing to deal with her tantrum. Really, the are just children and it can be easy to give in to this crap (and feel badly if we don't). But I've found that refusing this type of manipulation is better for me in the long run.

      I know it's really hard and I do NOT envy you having her visit. Good luck and hang in there!

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  8. We both have the same sister! I love your blog! I have not talked to my NSis in almost 3 years this Christmas. The holidays are quickly approaching and the "old" part of me feels a tiny bit bad for my 86 year old mother that we are still not speaking and therefore our holiday's will be divided yet again. Anyway, as others have stated above, I think you let it go. Either verbal or email contact will lead to her unloading on you about how you are making her feel bad and not meeting her needs and your feelings mean nothing. I think my response to her text is that it is not a conversation to be had via text and if she wants to meet you to discuss the break down, it's on your terms. Of course, she'll be defensive anyway. It's a tough spot we all are in but I'm feeling much stronger in my stance now and my DH repeatedly tells me now it's nice to hear me laugh and want to engage in life again. I'm sure your gut instinct will lead you on what is best. It's time for all of us to be able to enjoy our holiday seasons on our terms, not theirs. - Kel Ann

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  9. I have the same sister you do, and the same NM! Back when I was pregnant with my first child, my NM called me completely out of the blue (not NSIS, who was far too special to sully herself with the family scapegoat). The reason? She wanted me to let my unemployed, drunken sister use my health insurance to get a prescription of The Pill because the LAST thing she needed was to get pregnant by one of the many guys she was sleeping with.

    Besides the obvious insurance fraud which I was NOT going to risk jail time over, I happened to be 4 months pregnant with a much-wanted child and any self-respecting gyn doctor would not prescribe pills to a pregnant woman.

    When I pointed that last part out to my NM (because she wouldn't care if I went to jail for insurance fraud) she screamed at me that I was "always so SELFISH" and "only think of" myself. Also that I was "always so CONTROLLING". Methinks it was quite the bit of projection.

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    1. Wow! That's a new one. How selfish of you to not care if your sister got pregnant!! I can see exactly how your NM's deluded thinking is working.
      It's amazing to me that they can even come up with this shit, let alone act on it.
      I'm sorry to hear that you have the same NM and same NSIS....but, man, it helps to hear that I am not alone. Thanks for stopping by Anon.

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    2. You are not alone, NARC-y families are all alike.

      Yes, it would have been MY FAULT if my sister had gotten pregnant, because how could a GC ever be held responsible for anything they did or failed to do. :-)

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