Releasing the past in order to find myself

Tuesday, April 8, 2014

Same is Ever

I think ACoNs have a sixth sense about when the narcs will circle.  Really, it's not a sixth sense, but an incredible ability to "feel" the storm coming before it hits.  Much like you can feel a thunderstorm coming before it arrives: the air changes, you can feel a "charge" in the wind, distant rumblings.  All the birds go quiet.   ACoNs have learned to pick up on these subtle clues and patterns.  Even if we don't fully realize it, we start to feel a sense of unease about things.

These last few months I've been really sorting through some deeper layers of feeling about my mother.  It was one thing to learn about narcissism and see the patterns, it was another to really feel my feelings about my relationship with my mother.  To get past the grief and  mourning and really have to acknowledge that she is who she is and will not change.  To fully see, without blinders, how willingly she puts me in harm's way to save herself.  How completely she disregards me as if I was completely invisible.  A specter, a ghost that she thinks she sees, but really has no ability to see me as a real person. 

Some of this has been triggered by events in my life and finally seeing how emotionally unavailable she is to me.  Some of it has been triggered by, finally, reading the McBride Book "Will I Ever be Good Enough? Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers."  (I know, why haven't I read it before?  Really, though, I think that it is more helpful now than it would've been if I'd read it first.)

Some of it has been triggered by my mother's behaviors.  She has been, not so subtly, referencing my sister over and over.  She brings her up in almost every conversation of length we have.  Not directly, but just casual, "oh, your sister talked to so and so."  Or including me in "group texts" that also include her.  Most recently, she sent me a picture of my sister's new couch.  Considering my sister and I have not spoken to each other in two years, this text was completely inappropriate in that context.   When I didn't respond, she sent another text, saying she'd "sent the wrong picture" of the couch.  What in the world did she expect me to say to that?

For those of you who don't know my back story (and you can go to the bottom and click the NSIS label to see posts pertaining to her, if you are interested in a more detailed version): my sister is  highly self-destructive, most-likely bipolar with narcissistic overtones, verbally abusive, irresponsible, reactive, and angry.  She is thoroughly enmeshed with my mother.  She lies, manipulates, and is extremely reactive.  Any attempts to really communicate with her are raged against, so true intimacy and connection are impossible.  I spent years and years trying to "help" her, only to be completely disregarded, upstaged, and ignored when it wasn't about her.  She has ignored (or created chaos) around the most important days of my life and nothing has every been about me with her.  I have been her support system and I am a "tool" to be used by her, a "resource".  My mother has always excused her and expected me to appease her despite my sister's escalating behaviors.   Because I have "turned out OK" (I don't act out on my emotions) my mother has always minimized and invalidated any feelings.  In any attempts I have had with my mother to address my issues with our relationship, she has gas lighted and twisted the conversation to make herself the victim.  My feelings and point of view have never truly been addressed or acknowledged by either of them. 

This all came to a head when my sister "announced" she had a very serious illness on FB, but then quickly deleted it.  Enough people saw it, that it got back to me, but my sister never told me directly (and "the illness" is still up for debate in regard to it's severity and if it existed at all.)  My sister finally "called me out" after two months for "not supporting" her during her time of need and it quickly dissolved into her screaming and raging at me (she'd been screaming and raging and lying to my father.)  I tried in successive emails to begin a discussion about how dysfunctional our relationship was.  She continued to rage, call me names, ignore my boundaries (only discussing by email), gas lighted, twisted, demeaned me, and then tried to "play pretend" and go on as usual (by asking my advice on a new bed she was buying -while taking money from my father to pay for her "bills" .)  I'd had enough and chose to not continue the discussion.  I was at a lose on how to proceed, as she doesn't seem to understand anything I say.  I haven't really heard from her in months, and that was only a text of "Merry Christmas".  She has sent random gifts to my kids (whom she sometimes acknowledges, sometimes doesn't and who she considers more of an extension of me than someone to have a relationship with), but only to one kid for his birthday and not the other.   All of this seemed like lame attempts to "pacify" me. 

NM and I have had a "cooling off" lately (mainly on my end) where I have remained detached in our communications.  I'm not ignoring her, but I'm not really actively pursuing a relationship.  After the situation yesterday (see previous post), I emailed her to figure out her schedule (and she again ignored that I was upset about something and blew me off, not that I expected her to do that.)  Last night, I got this message: (And I usually don't like to directly copy messages, but in this case, I don't think the true nature of the message can be conveyed without the direct text.  A few minor details have been concealed. My thoughts are in italics afterward. )


"Hey do you still have all those albums(records) from the 70's that your dad and I had."  The "old" me would've said just "yes" and left it at that.  But something in me told me that she was baiting me, and this time I decided to address that directly. And I actually couldn't remember if I had them.  NM gave me boxes of old shit of her and my dad's years ago to "store" that she did not "want in her house anymore.  This included all of the family photos of me and sister growing up. 

Me: "Did I have them? If I did, I still would have them. Why?"

NM: "Well stupid question on my part, of course you have them. Lol  (NSIS) has been buying old albums, and asked me if I had them still and if so she would like a few. Now that was not the best proper way to bring this up, but it is the best I know how. I don't remember what is in the inventory, except the good bad and the ugly.. I want that one, fits me. Lol. I think a (record title),  (band name) album was there too.. I told her I am sure they can be spit up between you two..I am trying to write this the best I can, it is just hard when my daughters are not in contact with each other and I am the root of the problem. Please don't blame (NSIS) for the decisions she made in her life that were made because of my wrong decisions"

So, first, it occurred to me how easily I would've "missed" this bait line before.  How she throws these things out there, hoping to snag me in a conversation and not just being upfront.  And she is clearly aware of that.

Some other thoughts:

Why not just say "Do you have those records?  If so, your sister wants some and can we divide them up."  Done and done.  But NOPE, she has to stir up drama and bring it back to our relationship.  To me, I bet she's been looking for this opening for a LONG time. 

Her continual "not the best way" business is annoying as hell.  Of course it's not the best way.  It's late at night, in a FB message, and not really relevant to what she wants to say.   And the "it's just hard when my daughters are not in contact" is clearly ALL ABOUT HER.   And then she says that she is the "root of the problem".  That's news to me.  She never takes responsibility.  And I don't think she really is now either.  If she wanted to take responsibility, or really discuss this, it wouldn't be tacked on to a fucking message about old records.  HOW is she the root of the problem?  Does she seem sorry?  NO.  It appears to me to be only a "victim" plea.

Then, she goes back into the same sort of bullshit, "don't blame NSIS, she knows not what she does."  This is the same story I've heard over and over and over.  Nothing is NSIS's fault.  Which is A LOT of the reason NSIS is in the situation she is in now.  NM has always infantilized her and never held her accountable.  And I'm supposed to just "excuse" that.  I might add that my sister is in her MID- THIRTIES.  Far too old to be blaming "mommy" for her problems.

And really, even if I accept that excuse, where does that leave me?  I see so much blame shifting here.  So much avoidance of responsibility.  Smoke and mirrors.  And triangulating. 

I thought, for one moment, that she was actually trying to make an attempt to change.  And that sort of sucked too.  After spending years trying to get past her, I wasn't keen on jumping back into that mess.

The whole message left me rolling my eyes.  This, in and of itself, was a huge step for me.  I felt mild annoyance, but not anger, not venom, not bitterness.  I felt clear headed and unemotionally charged when I typed up my response. 

Me: "(NSIS) has been a grown woman for a long time now, and any and all decisions she makes are by her own choices. We are not in contact now because she chooses to hurt me, disrespect me, and shows little consideration for me. Among other things. And it is a pattern that I have hoped would change as she grew up. It did not.

That being said, she is welcome to any and all of the records. I have told her before that I would give everything back to you and that you could then split it up. When you come down, you can grab them."

I was trying to be as "neutral" and "just the facts, ma'am" as I could.  I didn't want to JADE, but wanted to be clear about my position on my relationship with NSIS.  And frankly, I couldn't ignore the situation forever and stick my head in the sand.

NM replied:  "Awwww..., I didn't want this to go this way...and it is really not about me. They will be split..I really do thank you for storing them, and it was wrong for me to put that on you. I really do apologize. .. Not asking you to forgive just know I am truly sorry.."


Go which way?  WTF?  I can see, maybe how she might have read "anger" in my reply, but it is a bit of a stretch.  To me, she is "finding drama" in the message.  And subtly suggesting I'm being reactive.  And what did she expect me to say?  To just "soften" and let "go of my grudge" (which I think is how she views this.  That I'm just holding a grudge and that it can be all patched up with hugs and an apology.  This relationship has gone off the track for 30 years.  And it wasn't great to begin with. 

And apologize for WHAT?  Seriously, this is the lamest apology in the world if she is expecting it to make up for all the crap all these years.  And really,  I suspect she's apologizing for me storing her shit, and not for anything real.  "I'm not asking you to forgive...." Really?  I doubt that.  And "truly sorry" for WHAT? 

Then, she topped it off with this:

NM:  "(NSIS) has been getting help for her choices and life decisions this past year, and I pray she has the life ahead she truly wants. ..I can't judge her for her decisions, as I know as more come out her reactions and choices for her life in the past were due to my immature decisions and how she reacted were different then how you reacted. Not to say you ever went without hurt and hardship, you handled them different. and not to stay you don't still don't have pain...I am not excusing (NSIS) nor is she excusing her decisions because of what I did, I just know things would be different if I had not made stupid choices. I hurt every day to what I caused...and never ever wanted to hurt my daughters or their relationship with each other..I hope someday you reunite. Love you!"

OK, starting from the top of this: NM starts out immediately minimizing NSIS's behaviors and "balancing" them out by saying she is "getting help".  Getting help from who?  The last time she told me that NSIS was getting help, NSIS was just doing yoga.  And that was supposed to "help".  And from what I've seen (several crazy FB posts that were completely nuts) NSIS hasn't changed at all.  And even if she has, she has made NO attempts to actually work on our relationship.  And also, that is NSIS's place to reach out, NOT NM's.    "I can't judge..." I'm assuming that she is implying that I am judging NSIS.  Clearly, by choosing to step out of NSIS's narcissistic reach, I am being judgmental and bitter, according to NM.  "as more comes out....due to my immature decisions."  Immature?  WOW, that's a complete mischaracterization.  You've all read my childhood, was she just "immature"?  Again, sounds like excuses, just for NM this time.   And the whole sentence there is convoluted.  SHE won't judge and SHE knows the "real truth" and if I knew that "truth" (which she likes to withhold, but clearly likes to hint at.  NM likes to be "in the know".) I wouldn't be so horrible and "hold it against" NSIS (and again, she's ignoring the fact that NSIS continually and habitually does horrible things to me).    The next bit about how NSIS just "chose to react" differently and all she says about my pain and hardship feels completely minimizing to me.  Like "I know you had some bad times, but CLEARLY NSIS's were worse.  And so you need to get over it and help her."  It's all about NSIS's issues, and mine couldn't clearly be as bad, and aren't worth talking about and it's the same as it ever was.  This is the same. damn. pattern of our relationship that we've always had.  Jessie's feelings, pain, issues, hardships don't really count.  And while she "nods" in my direction, she doesn't really give a shit about what is really going on in my end of this situation.  It's ALL about NSIS.  NSIS is (finally) doing a teeny bit to get her life on track and I'm supposed to throw her a parade.  And because I never inflicted my "pain" on NM or NSIS, than clearly it wasn't that bad.  

And then NM again references "stupid choices".  She didn't make stupid choices.  She abandoned her kids, put her feelings first, ignored everything that was going on with us, inflicted emotional pain by forcing us to chose between "her feelings" and "not supporting her new marriage"- to the man she had an affair with, and has continued to make sure that EVERYTHING revolves around her.  This was one stupid choice 20 years ago.  This is a lifetime of being a selfish and self absorbed mother who can't empathize with her daughter to save her life.  She has done nothing to remedy things, has never truly taken responsibility, or attempted to heal herself or work on things.

And even though, clearly, her mothering effected my sister, it does not excuse the years of her treating me horribly as adults.  I tried and tried and tried to fix this relationship.  And nothing worked.  I tried to be OK with being completely marginalized, ignored, and verbally abused, manipulated, lied to and walking on eggshells.  And I left because, at some point, it became her or me.  So, yes, I can empathize with NSIS (and shouldn't NM be able to realize that?  That I GET IT that NSIS has issues?) but I won't tolerate being abused by her because of it. 

This last message left me tongue tied.  Several things came to mind.  And yes, part of me was angry.  All I see here is a pity-party for poor NM who was really just a "victim" in her mind.  How badly NM hurts.  How Nm feels.  What NM needs.  And a lot of excuses for NSIS.  A lot of asking me to completely brush my feelings and concerns under the rug and go back to the way it was (mainly for NM's sake, not for our own sakes.)    I drafted several responses, but they clearly were reactive and I didn't want that.  I wanted to respond in a way that made sure she knows that this sort of weak attempt at apologizing (and manipulating me) is not going to work.  And that she knows her offering up an apology for my sister's shitty relationship with me is not acceptable.  It is neither appropriate or OK.  It is complete triangulation and an attempt to control the adult relationships of her daughters.  And it's none of her business. 

On a positive note, even though I am bothered by this email, I have not been leveled by it.  I feel myself responding instead of just reacting to her behavior.  I don't feel particularly hurt, although I am angry and annoyed (both feelings I allowed myself to feel and am trying to process and let go).  Although there is lots of "pretenses" of caring her on my mother's part, I don't see any real change. This is how the relationship with my mother and sister had been all along.  And NM is just working at being "peace" broker for her own needs (to feel good about herself, she loves to "rescue" and to make herself feel better about her "stupid choices").  She needs to learn to butt the fuck out.   I did not feel sucked into her bullshit, although I did feel a moment of panic that she was trying to attempt a real relationship (that fear immediately went away after I read the whole exchange.  There is no real effort on her part.) 

I feel saddened by all of this, but not defeated (like I would have).  But I do need advice on what to say next.  I don't want to JADE.  I don't want to explain.  And I want her to butt the hell out.  Any suggestions or thoughts?  Anything is appreciated. 
 



     
     

    17 comments:

    1. I know exactly how you feel. It's still all about them. Not once do they ask how you are doing or handling any of the past because they are not concerned with how you feel. I'm guessing here but there is no healing on their part. You've done all the work on trying to deal with this painful world we all ACoN's have lived with. One thing, I know that I am trying to work/change in myself is cut the middleman out. If your NSis want's the records, then she needs to contact you. You Nmom should not be in the middle even though she chose to put herself there. I have yet to truly cut the middle man out. For the past 2.5 years, I've made my DH the go-between. Now I feel healthy and strong enough to be direct and make me the go to person. With Mothers' day around the corner, I have to toughen my skin up to see if Nsis will attend a mother's day lunch. I feel bad for my mom that she too was raised by a narc but doesn't know it. However, she is 85 years old and it's just sad to me that she has two daughters not talking. It's her wrong doing and my Nsis' bad behavior. I could write exactly what you wrote about my sister but she has had this gift of finding suckers to marry her and take care of her and she at least is now holding down a job again. However, she will never be able to ever support herself. Anyway, my bit of advice is next time, tell you mom to butt out like you said and if your Nsis wants something, she needs to contact you personally with no go betweens. Easier said than done but as you get stronger (myself included) it gets easier.

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      1. Anon - That is good advice, and generally, I do not allow her to be the middle man. I'm not even sure that NSIS knows that my NM asked me for them. I'm thinking NM is using that in order to angle back to the problems between me and NSIS more than anything. NM is a master triangulator, and I generally avoid that at all costs.
        However, with both the family pictures and these records, I feel it would be better to give them all back to my mother and let her split them up. Then I won't be accused of keeping the "best" ones or whatever. NM dished off that stuff when she was wanting to rid herself of her past. I was given them - almost 8 years ago- because I was the only one responsible enough to keep them (NSIS moves constantly and doesn't have a good track record of keeping things safe). I had every intention (actually still do) of scanning the photos and then separating the books out when my sister could take half. She has already accused me of "keeping her childhood" from her when I wouldn't pack up -and UPS - the entire HUGE box to her (it would've cost me a fortune. it's heavy.) So, I figured the best way would be to give my mother back it all and force her to do what she should've done in the first place. And really I could care less about the records.

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      2. "I'm not even sure that NSIS knows that my NM asked me for them."

        That answers one of my questions.

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      3. "However, with both the family pictures and these records, I feel it would be better to give them all back to my mother and let her split them up."

        I like this solution better than the one I mentioned in my list of observations (when I suggested that you send the box to your NSIS) - it puts the responsibility of taking care of tat particular physical burden on your NM's shoulders, where it belongs.

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    2. Just my opinion, but I read your NM's message as, "Jessie, how DARE you not let us abuse you?!? Don't you know NSIS and I had it HARRRRRRD?!? Sure we 'made mistakes', but you need to BE THE BIGGER PERSON and let us heap abuse upon you some more!" --LuLoo

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      1. Yup. Sounds about right to me. All of that hidden under "LOLs" and "I'm SO sooooorrry" bullshit.

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    3. (Part 1)

      Here are some of my main thoughts, in somewhat random order:

      1. Your NM is really, really sneaky but her tactics are probably only invisible to the untrained eye. (And you, my friend, are not blind to her tactics anymore. I am seriously impressed by your skills here). The opening bit about the records that she was looking for was evidence that this is not a woman who is even remotely interested in keeping things up front. She is someone who solves her problems using the most manipulative and convoluted methods possible. Also - the whole issue of these "long-lost" records that she planted YEARS AGO made me wonder if she had planned all along to use them for exactly this purpose, you know? Like, somehow or another she originally made the choice to give them to you with the sole intention of using them to manipulate you later? I can't knock that possibility and that disturbs me.

      2. I am REALLY glad you didn't walk into the trap. Nicely done. I found the premise of your NM's "leading question" to be rather obnoxious. She asked a question she already had the answer to that had absolutely zero to do with what she actually wanted to talk at you about. I got to the end of her, "Well stupid question on my part" paragraph and thought, "Well. That escalated quickly." Look at the skeleton of that paragraph: "Of course you have those records that I already know I gave you...Your sister wants some of them...Gosh everyone should feel sorry for me...Mostly because I have two daughters who just can't get along and everyone will think I was a bad Mom...Can't have that." Now, everyone kiss and make up.

      3. Are we even sure that NSIS knows anything about this conversation your NM is having with you (either about the inane long-lost records OR about your relationship with her?) Your NM makes it sound as though NSIS knows about it and maybe even elicited it, but I have my doubts. Triangulation at it's finest.

      4. It might have been interesting to see what might have happened if you had just, say, located whatever box your NM was talking about and sent the albums to your NSIS and avoided conversing with your NM about it entirely. The problem with that though, would have been that your NSIS would probably have taken that as a sign from you that you had "gotten over your snit" and might have attempted some sort of superficial communication with you as a result. I know it's SO not about the "albums" or whatever - that's just the superficial bullshit your NM used to get at you in a completely ass-backwards roundabout way. But it still irks me that there is pretty much no way for you to just have a relationship with your sister without your NM's interference.

      5. Having said that, I think you achieved your goal of being as "neutral" and "just the facts" quite nicely with your chosen response to your NM.

      6. "Awwww..." Really? I can't quite pinpoint what about this bothers me so much. (Well, the elipses for one). It's like she's talking to a baby. Or a dog. The use of that phrase is so wildly inappropriate for the context of the conversation.

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      1. 1.) NM is very sneaky and never upfront. She is very wordy and tips herself off whenever I get a very vague, short question that she's up to something. It drives me crazy that she just can't give me all the information up front. She does it to manipulate me and to retain "control" over the conversation. I doubt she planted the albums though. She's just not that crafty. She simply didn't want any reminders of my father in her house. BUT, I do think she used this issue to create drama and jumped on the chance to insert herself into my relationship with NSIS (I mean, it is so HARD on her that we aren't in contact....).
        2.) "She asked a question she already had the answer to that had absolutely zero to do with what she actually wanted to talk at you about." This is absolutely obnoxious and set me on edge to begin with. It sets me up to be on guard, defensive, and does not open up open lines of communication. She does this to me often. She thinks she's clever. I think she's obnoxious (to use your word). And the "kiss and make up" part is exactly her mentality. She always hated it if we didn't get along and would do anything to "get it over" with so she wasn't uncomfortable (my MIL is very much the same way). Slap a Band-Aid on it and shut up and quit disturbing ME, is their mentality.
        3. No, as you noticed I mentioned above. I actually doubt she knows anything about it. This is classic NM and something that took me a LONG time to catch on to. It is a very nasty side effect of enmeshment. When you have no boundaries between the three of us, it's easy to assume that everything and all thoughts flow between all of us.
        4.) As you saw above, being direct (which I would prefer) doesn't work. And as I said, I doubt NSIS knows what is going on, and I can not imagine the message the records showing up on her door would send to her. I'd like to think she'd see it as positive (although, I don't want her to think I'm "over my snit") only because I think NSIS would actually see it as passive-aggressive on my part. I can't exactly explain why she'd see it that way, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
        6. "Awww." That sent me off so much too. I couldn't figure it out for the longest time. First off, I think it is HUGELY condescending. Like I'm a toddler who had a bad reaction. It feels so placating and completely invalidates the "grown up" response I'd just given her. Also, it dawned on me yesterday that it was pure projection on her part. She is assuming that I'm reacting angrily and defensively in my response (because that's how SHE would take it and that's what she expected of me). She WANTS me to be angry so she can "soothe" me and make everything nice between her two daughters (notice she says 'my" daughters, like we are some distant objects. And she completely is treating us like children). And when she gets an adult response out of me, she is trying to drag it back down to her level, by patronizing me.

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    4. (Part 2)

      7. "Not asking you to forgive just know I am truly sorry.." I have to go dig NMIL's line out now, for comparison: "Not saying she [Jonsi] is making you [hurt your FOO], it’s your actions that are reflecting that." The formula here is that they actually meant precisely what they are saying they don't mean. So like, what your NM was totally asking you to do was forgive her (i.e. forget all the pain she's inflicted on you). Then, to make it look like that's NOT what she's after, she waters it down. It's like they're trying to plant a fucking seed.

      8. Inappropriate...use...of...elipses and exclamation points!!!!!

      9. Don't be mistaken that your NM has even a sliver of empathy for your NSIS because she doesn't. While I do think she tries to paint the picture that she feels "more" for your (golden child) sister than she does for you (that particular mind-fuckery is all a part of the game, and I believe it's intentional) I'm not fooled into believing that at all. In your NM's POV, it's about her (your NM), it has always been about her, and it will always be about her. Your sister is as much a pawn as you are to her. Your NM cares no more for the outcome of your NSIS's life than she does about yours, except insofar as what you can both offer her.

      10. All of her explanations are SUPER vague.

      11. "I hurt every day to what I caused...and never ever wanted to hurt my daughters or their relationship with each other..I hope someday you reunite. Love you!" - I don't know whether she copied this from a form letter or what. Also, if she was truly taking responsibility, as she implies, for the degradation of your relationship with your sister, should she not then also take responsibility for the repairing of that relationship? As she states here though, she's implying SOLE responsibility for having fucked up your relationship with your sister and then saying she "hopes" you guys can fucking work it out on your own.
      Way to go, NM. [Slow clap]. That's what I call a TELL. I smell the distinct odor of bullshit.

      12. NM can't see that you empathize with your sister because SHE doesn't empathize with your sister (or anyone for that matter). While I think that logically she knows what empathy is and even what it looks like, I imagine that to her, empathy is, like, impossible. I wonder whether she recognizes it. You clearly have it in droves for your sister. But maybe that's not so clear to NM.

      13. It is my opinion that NM is NEVER going to learn to butt the fuck out. No matter what you say. Or how many times you say it.

      14. "although I did feel a moment of panic that she was trying to attempt a real relationship" This is, perhaps, the most intriguing part of this whole post to me. I think there must be some really deep realization here, some profound and painful truth in this, the fact that it scares you to imagine your mother attempting a "real relationship" with you. Why? Because you know, in your heart of hearts, that it is not, even remotely, a possibility? That no matter how much you give, she will never offer you what you need from her in return?

      And of course the most immediate issue is...what to say next? (I'd like to think on this for a few more minutes before offering a suggestion)

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      1. 7.) I'm not even sure what the hell I'm supposed to "forgive" her for. Her tacky message? The record storage? Her being a miserable mom who caused such chaos in her kids that they can't have a relationship? And frankly, I HAVE fucking forgiven her. That's what pisses me off. I have forgiven, but I'm not just going to forget and allow them to treat me horribly again. I'm not angry, I'm not bitter and holding a grudge (as she does). But I'm also not stupid and sick of being treated as such.
        8. ........always!!!! That's her trademark, don't cha know! NM can't take the time to work out her thoughts ahead of time. She just types whatever stream of consciousness pops into her head.
        9.) This is a very good point and something I often forget. One of NM's greatest tricks (like the triangulation above) is the image she creates to one sister about the other. This took me forever to figure out. Mainly because, I actually think NM LIKES when NSIS and I don't get along. This has happened before in our early twenties. We rarely spoke. NM had both of us convinced the other was the SOLE source of NM's "pain and suffering". When we got together and compared notes, we discovered NM was telling the other sister the exact same things to each of us, making the other sister seem horrible and a wretched daughter. This helped us forge a relationship for several years "outside" of NM (which she hated and complained about us "talking about her") until I could no longer ignore NSIS's behaviors and their effect on me too.
        But every now and then, I see through the veneer of the relationship my mother projects to me she has with my sister. Like when she sent me the picture of NSIS's new couch and told me how excited she was. What really was sad about that situation is that NSIS was actually trying to have an intimate moment with HER MOTHER and share in something special. But NM took that moment, that opportunity to support and celebrate her daughter, and USED IT to "remind" me of my sister and our shitty relationship. She completely convoluted the situation and made what could've been a good moment for her as a mom into something nasty.
        I also think all of this "NSIS" is getting help is meant to make me feel like she's safe now. But I know better. And NM just wants me back to take some of the pressure off of her (dealing with NSIS is a lot of work....at least when you have the relationship the two of them have.)
        11. Another good point. And yes, NM speaks like a form letter at times (that's how you can tell when she's trying to be super manipulative. It comes off as phony.) And no, she does not want to do any of the work involved in fixing anything. She has never wanted to "fix" anything, but just go back to "business as usual". She things "I'm sorry" and "Love You" is enough (which, by the way, the "Love you!" really pissed me off. After all of that, I get some pathetic, lame declaration of her "love".
        I like what you said to about her dropping the whole "healing" on the two of us after the mess SHE made (and is suddenly willing to "take responsibility" for. That's new. I'm guessing the therapist my sister is seeing is pointing out some truths that NM is trying to wiggle around. "OOPs. Maybe some of that was my fault. Well, I'm sorry. All better now?"

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      2. 12. Another good point. I hadn't thought about it like that. I always wondered WHY she couldn't see how much I care for my sister. I've done everything I could to accommodate NSIS (until I didn't) and I still completely get where she is coming from. I just can't accept NSIS's behavior as OK anymore (and actually, I think I'm doing what is best for NSIS by holding her accountable.) And NM is always telling me that SHE loves NSIS more than me (because I'm "only" the sister and she is the mom) and that SHE has been there for NSIS more and that SHE knows everything about the situation and I don't. (NM also tells me she KNOWS all about my feelings, despite being completely unwilling to listen when I try to tell her. She doesn't NEED me to tell her, because she KNOWS. Whatever.) It's like a competition to her. Who "cares" more. But, like you said, NM can conceptually understand empathy, but has no clue what to do with it.
        13. ) Nope, most likely not. I've told her over and over and over. NM likes to rescue. NM likes to be the hero (did you notice the album she picked to describe herself was "The Good, The Bad, and the The Ugly"? She fancies herself some wise old cowboy-type. The strong but silent (except dosing out small pearls of wisdom) type who rides in and saves the "town") If she can not rescue, she doesn't feel valuable. I believe she actually CREATES situations in which she can be the hero (I wrote a post a few weeks back about how she tried to be the hero to my son when he lost his favorite toy). And then expects everyone to stand around and applaud.
        14. I think it's interesting you picked up on that. I almost didn't include that part. I felt like saying that I didn't want to work on a relationship with her sounded bitter of me. Like, haven't I been bitching that I wished she'd change all this time, and haven't I WANTED her to reach out?
        But, you are exactly right. It's because I have spent SO much time coming to terms with the fact that she is not going to change. That there is no real relationship. That was so fucking hard to accept. I felt like this "real relationship" would just be a bunch of drama, and in the end, it would wind up exactly where we are now. I felt a bit unforgiving saying I wouldn't "try", but maybe I saw through all of the b.s. enough to know that there was no real chance? I felt panic I think knowing that I'd just be sucked back into the drama pit again.
        And I do think, if I saw some real change, I would be willing to try. But slowly. Not just "OK, that's done. Now let's go back to being friends!!!!" b.s. I think maybe that's the key. If she really changes, she'll allow me to come to her in my time and in my way.

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    5. I'm just going to toss a few thoughts out on possible responses.

      1. Does her last message require a response? I know you want to respond, but is your mother asking for one? Or is your response "already in the bag" for her? A lack of response is a response in and of itself, and it has potential to be a powerful one.

      2. If she's actually taking responsibility for having fucked up your relationship with NSIS, then it's pretty shitty of her to not even offer help in mending what she's saying she destroyed. The nut is that at this point, it is CRUCIAL that she stop interfering in your relationship with NSIS. So, the best thing she could possibly do at this point for you and your sister is to A) STRAIGHT-FORWARDLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY admit to having fucked up your relationship with each other in the first place, B) express genuine remorse for it, and C) Accept that the two of you need to work out your relationship with each other in your own time and in your own way. Even if that means never.

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      1. 1. Good point. I wanted to give her a response to tell her, basically, that I'm not buying what she is selling. I think part of me just wants to say "fuck you. You don't get it, never will. Mind your own damn business." I'd love to tell her that messages like this only confirm to me how little she gets/understands/empathizes with me.
        But, I just saw it as a rabbit hole. No response would make her understand that. I wish it would, so I could get a break from all of this. So she would just leave me be for awhile. But I don't think so.
        And, I didn't really have to give a response. When she kept checking back on FB (I could see her on and off all day) and I didn't respond, she sent me some bland message about buying shit for my kids and that she sent it up. So. That is that. And I think it's quite telling. If she really wanted to work on things, she would've left the door open, extended a bridge, something to know she's open to communication. But, in the end, she said what she wanted to say (and probably patted herself on the back for "trying" to "help" her daughters. But that damn stubborn, pig headed, grudge holding Jessie won't give in. Even when everyone else is "trying" and "getting help". Ha. If she knew that I was the ONLY one who really has tried and gotten help.) And when I didn't take her bait, she threw out her token "I bought you something" and then moved on. Great.

        2. Yes, it is crucial she stay the fuck out of it. But she isn't interested in that. How can she wear her Queen of the Universe Crown if she steps out of the way. She won't be able to lay claim to the credit for helping us "work it out". And your three bullet points are exactly what she needs to do. But that won't ever happen. Sigh. At least I have accepted that.

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    6. Hi Jessie,
      I think you handled it well and saw her behaviours clearly. Coincidentally, I've been reading on manipulation lately and the minimising you point out is mentioned - a way to isolate and separate the two of you to gain control. Her words were similar to what I have read about debasement manipulation tactics. Where she calls herself immature and makes stupid choices to devalue her worth as to evoke certain emotions to gain control again. This kind of covert manipulation I have a hard time seeing in my interactions and it helped to see it beside what I had been reading. Thank you for sharing and understand it isn't easy to go through. xx

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      1. Thank you, TR. Yes, I've really struggled as both my NM and MIL are extremely covert. It is SO hard to see and I often thought I was the problem (as I seemed to be so negatively effected by our interactions).
        Do you have any specific references to this kind of manipulation? I'd be interested to read further.
        I hadn't thought about what she is doing with the minimizing and I think what you are saying is correct, that she's trying to "admit" a little bit so that I soften a bit and she can then act like she is the bigger person and control the situation again.
        However, I've spent DECADES discussing these issues and this pathetic admittance of mistakes doesn't work anymore with me. To chalk up all that she did (and she is mainly just talking about the divorce, although there is SO much more) to "stupid mistakes" is insulting to me now.

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    7. I read Harriet B. Braiker, Ph.D. book "Who's Pulling Your Strings?" and am now going through the parts I underlined. It is a good book for understanding the basics. She mentions debasement without examples. I found it helpful to read a series of articles that CS (Caliban's Sisters) linked to. The link is below.
      The author of these articles wrote another well known book on manipulation called "In Sheep's Clothing".

      http://counsellingresource.com/features/tag/series-on-manipulation-tactics/

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      1. I have also read Braiker, "Who's Pulling Your Strings," and "The Disease to Please." The first I have credited with much of my success in escaping my first relationship with a narcissist.

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