Releasing the past in order to find myself

Thursday, July 5, 2012

My Relationship with NMIL

I am going to apologize for the ramblings I'm about to do.  I have so many thoughts swirling in my head, and I'm guessing it will all come out sort of jumbled.  So, hang on and bear with me.

As DH and I have embarked upon this narcissistic journey, it's been a rough road.  And although he can see my points about NM and conceeds that I have validity in what I saw about NMIL, he still can't see the big picture.  He's still missing the larger ramifications, effects, legacies.  He can't see the forest for the trees.  All he can see is the trees, lined up individually.  And when he sees the trees, he can't understand why I feel lost so deeply in her forest.  He can't see how all those trees have stacked upon each other to form one black wall.  Some of the trees seem so far in the past to him, he can't see why they still bother me, or I'm even still thinking about them.  But for me those trees are all linked together.  That farthest back tree is the foundation, the start of the forest, the moment I entered the deep woods.  And he has asked me, several times, in a very sad way if I hate her.  I don't hate her.  I've tried to explain that I hate the way she treats me.  I hate the way I've never stood up for myself.  I hate that he always has dismissed her, excused her, trivialized what I have said.

I can remember vividly staring at my reflection as I closed my car door.  I was about to meet DH's parents for the first time and I was shaking.  I wanted so badly for them to like me.  I wanted so badly to fit in.  I loved him dearly already, and I wanted him to be proud of me.  I was young, naive, and had no real identity in myself.  I was locked in a horrible time with my mother and felt very alone and outcast.  I had few girlfriends because I rarely trusted them.  And the ones I did, I always wound up hurt.  Not surprisingly, I was often the third wheel in a trio of friends (hello, NM and NSIS all over!) and I always felt hurt as i was locked on the outside.  But I wanted to impress.  I wanted to be liked.  I was young.

NMIL was a church going-type lady.  She sang in the choir, was involved in all kinds of groups.  She was a no nonsense lady who was raising four boys.  She was a bit tom boyish.  She hadn't changed her hair style since the late 80s (this was in the late 90s)  She was little, but round.  She had a big laugh and ruled her kids with a tight rein.  Her home was rowdy and boisterous and chaotic.  But it was decorated in dainty florals and old victorian furniture.  I learned later that the home had been her mother's.  She clearly hadn't changed a thing in the 20 years she lived there...literally.   For many, many years, not a picture changed on the wall, furniture never was rearranged, and even knickknacks that had been there for decades sat in the same spots in the bathroom.

And I wanted to fit in.  So, I kept my mouth shut and went with the flow.  I ignored how the family all lacked boundaries about walking around in their underwear, assuming it was "family of boy thing".  I went to sporting events and family picnics.  I met extended relatives and watched my mouth.  I talked little about myself, but just tried to assimilate.  I got the feeling, early on that that was expected of me.  To assimilate.  I smiled through gritted teeth as I was continually embarrassed by the family's loud, obnoxious behavior at restaurants (oh, this is just how we are!).  I ignored the teasing, and the name calling and the meanness, as I again took it for "a family of boys".  Boys will be boys.

I tolerated being made fun of and picked on for my small breasts (according to NMIL) in a very public way, on several occasions.  And I was aware this was a family joke that ran behind my back.  In fact, I became uncomfortable aware that ALL of me had been discussed by family members while not in my presence.  I sucked it up when my boundaries were violated and things were asked of me that I really couldn't afford to give.  I remember once an aunt telling her daughter to ask me for my hair barrettes that the daughter wanted. Because I should've just handed them over.  It didn't matter that I was poor, or loved the barettes, or couldn't afford to replace them.  I was just expected to give them because her daughter wanted them.

I tried to fit in.  I became a "Christian" because I knew it was very important to NMIL.  I even got baptized at her...um, insistence, I'll call it.  I took her along to wedding planning events and stood dutifully as she plopped a tacky, large wedding crown on my petite head.  I politely declined it, despite her insistance and offer to pay for it.  I explained it wasn't my style.  I argued as politely as I could that it just didn't go with my style.  I tried to not take it personally when she mocked and commented negatively about what  I had chose.  I listened to all the family war stories over and over and laughed at the jokes.  I took a very, long road trip with her to see DH and tried not to notice her almost bitter attitude as she dropped me off at his home and left for her hotel.  I pretended that DH and I maintained all sorts of Christian pureness.  I went along with lies when she bought (now SIL and BIL) and DH and I a hotel room on a family vacation and stated we had to sleep girls with girls and boys with boys.  Absurd, weird, and gross now that I think about it.  And I went on family vacations and went along with everything and tried to fit in.

The first red flags came when I dared to disagree with some of her Christian ideology.  She had a very strict, literal view of things and it hadn't occurred to any of her sons to dispute her.  They took her word for it that that was how things were.  When I started to dissent, and offer up altneratives, I was ridiculed and put down.  I remember feeling very badly.  Not that she argued against me.  She had BIL #2, who was to be the minister do that.  She just told me that God had told her messages to give me.  I found this odd.

NMIL raised her boys with the objective of getting it done.  In fact, that is how she always did everything.  It didn't matter how it got done, just that it was done.  She asked me once to help BIL4 with homework, a paper.  Having a teacher's soul, I sat down and began helping him.  Asking him questions, helping him form sentences.  But I would never have written it for him.  I had to many ethics to do that.  I knew that this kid's freshman teacher would never believe that he had written what I, a college educated and pretty literate person, would have written.  I thought he needed to do it himself.  I clearly remember her snatching the paper from me and complaining that she'd just "help" him herself.  I apparently was taking too long.   She never seemed to be interested in teaching her kids.  She just corrected after the fact.  And if she could find someone else to do part of it for her, she would.  She often commented how DH's coach in school had given him discipline.  She used teasing and yelling and name calling to keep her kids in line.  She herded them like cattle towards the finish line.  DH explained that she had it rough with four boys.  It was hard to control them.  She just was doing her best.  Maybe she was.  But she also seemed to have the philosophy of just throwing whatever at them and seeing what stuck.  It was chaotic and pieced together and frantic.  She never seemed to actually be in control despite always demanding to be in control.  And she hardly ever let them do things  for themselves.  She explained this under the guise that she was helping them, but in reality I think she just wanted to take the easy way out.  Just get it done as fast as possible.  Not actually teach her kids to fish, but just throw fish at them and pat herself on the back for being a good provider.  She picked paths for her kids and shoved them down them.  She picked all three of DH's brothers' career paths (only one stuck, and that one is in jeopardy at the moment.  I remember her hiring a resume writer for DH when he graduated college.  She claimed this lady was the best, but that was her typical m.o.  It didn't matter if the credentials were valid, as long as the person told her they were.   So, she made some lady to type up a basic resume.  She bought him some suits and some work clothes.  She dressed him up and pushed him out, expecting the world.  In image, her kids always looked the part of prepared grownups.  Unfortunately, she never gave them the actually skills to be grown ups.  And then she criticized them for their short comings and failings.  (And luckily, DH didn't need her help, succeeded on his own, and didn't take her hand holding.)  Again, she always wanted the result with out any work.

BIL3 has mental problems (learning and behavioral).  He was the whipping boy and family joke.  He took the brunt of the teasing and family stories about BIL3 were a favorite past time.  They still are.  And what I took for family reminising at the time has really started to bother me as of late.  He was held up as the "different one".  The reason the family was seen as crazy in the eyes of their town.  He was the shield they all hid behind, allowed themselves to feel "normal" behind.  I remember once suggesting that all of the family (except EFIL) had this particular disorder they liked to label BIL3 with.  You'd thought I'd accused them all of murder.  I assumed they all knew.  They were shocked that anyone would suggest they were like him.

After DH and I got married, NMIL ratched up the push for grandkids.  She bugged me all of the time.  She had begun to push her way into my and DH's life by buying us season tickets to a sporting event...with them. So, we saw them all the time.  It used to be one of our favorite things to do as a couple, but it got taken over.  Ironically, DH got his season ticket bought for him for his birthday.  I had to pay for mine myself.  DH always explained it was just that his parents spent less on me for my birthday.  I offered it to be my birthday and Christmas present.  NMIL always refused.  I don't think this was a coincidence or oversite.  Regardless, she used these games to start pushing me.  She hounded me for a grandkid (apparantly her son had no say, and it was all up to me, as she never bugged him.)  She whined that all her friends had grandkids.  She refused to here me as I said that we weren't ready (we were working through a lot at the time, including starting our careers and starting to come to terms with his family).  She stated that BIL and SIL weren't ready for kids when I suggested she bug them, as they'd been married just as long as we had.  I was irritated she believed she knew who was ready and who wasn't.   She evesdropped and butted into conversations I had with friends at the tailgate parties before hand.  She pushed me to "snuggle" under her blanket with her.  She pushed and pushed.  She expected to get my extra tickets if I didn't go to the game to give to her family or friends, but she never offered to pay me back for it.  I was  feeling more and more smothered and overwhelmed.  She pushed for this relationship with me.  Wanted us to be friends.  But she never wanted to do the work, never wanted to get to know me.  Always wanted to rush to the end where we were this super close daughter and mother-in-law.  Just get it done. 

Her grip of control started to tighten.  As DH and I grew up and away from her into independence, she seemed to ramp up.  She continued to plan big family vacations and functions and expected us to act as one unit, with her at the helm.  I attributed it at the time to the other brothers still being young.  She was still in that "mother of kids" mode.  I figured she'd grow and adapt to the way things were.  But she didn't.  She continued to cling to the idea of how things used to be.  And I believe she began to see me as a threat.  She began to see me as a threat to her idea.  She began relegating me to a "secondary" position in the family.  She determined a hierarchy.  It had always been there, but she began to make it much more clear.  Showing clear favoritism towards her kids when giving gifts.  Treating me as just another thing to get done when Christmas rolled around.  She made ornaments with all of our names on them.  "First Tier" family got big ornaments towards the top of the tree.  SIL, me, the dog, and the bird got small ornaments at the bottom of the tree.  And it could be argued that she ran out of big ornaments when she got to us.  But even then, you can see how her thinking went.  She seemed to treat me well, but it was clear to me that there was no thought, no desire to actually make me feel included or thought of.  Just to give the image of the doting MIL. But behind the scenes, she started to amp things up.  Snarky comments here and there.  Little criticisms.  Always taking someone else's side in a story.  Telling cautionary tales about her SIL who disowned the family and what a horrible, wretch of a woman she was.  I heard that story a lot.  But I got the custom pleasantries, but no depth.  No true intimacy.  No real work.  And it was my fault, cold, frigid, stuck-up person that I was, that the relationship didn't work.

When this didn't get her the results she wanted, she changed tactics.  Instead of treating me "just like everyone else", she started treating me better (or so she thought).  It was a full on assault to win my trust.  She started stalking me whenever we were together.  I couldn't take a step or change seats in a room without her following me.  She told SIL to quit spending time as a group, as I acted differently when SIL was around (which to me, was much more comfortable because I had a buffer).  She began staring at me like I was up on stage for viewing taking everything in.  Nothing missed her eye.  And she "complimented" me on everything.  Everything was just wonderful.  Everything I did was the best.  She took my side against DH if I expressed an disagreement.  She always took my side.  Always told me how smart I was.  It was all so phony.  I didn't believe any of it.  She changed her hair.  Started changing her home.  Dressing in a more..."youthful" way.

It was around this time she started her "coveting phase".  I've always noticed that she had no real identity of her own.  She always seemed to be a preschooler playing dress up.  Taking out an identity, trying it on, growing bored and trying on something else.  Her home and clothes and activities expressed nothing of who she was.  Even the church activities were passed down to her.  All relics of her parents that she just took on like a turtle's shell.  Then, for whatever reason, she began to adopt the identity of DH and me.  We went to Europe, she went to Europe.  We got into wine, she got into wine (although we were "alcoholics" and "wine snobs" at first.)  Anything we did, she did too.  We got a new house, she remodeled her kitchen.  It all felt very icky.  I had nothing, owned nothing that she didn't covet.  And the jealousy came out too.  If I cooked something well, she cooked something better.  When I got compliments for nicely wrapped gifts, she started wrapping gifts better (or at least my gifts, which bothers me even more.  Like I would be impressed by that.  I don't wrap gifts nicely to impress people, I do it because I want to show them I think they are important, worthy of something beautiful and my time.  So much of what she does seems to be to try to impress me.)   She has always been into what was "the best".  She'd believe anyone if they told her it was the best, a good deal, or worthy.  She must be a salesperson's dream.  She doesn't ever discern anything for herself, but takes everyone's word about things.  And so to compete, she started telling us about this "best wine" that she "knew you would like!!!" or some fabulous winery or movie or restaurant that she knew we would like, even if she couldn't actually take credit for the recommendation.  It was all about appearing that she was in the know.  Always laughing the loudest at the jokes.  Always being in the middle of every activity.  She couldn't be left out of anything.  She was getting on my last nerve.  I no longer trusted her or her intentions in the least bit.  I didn't believe anything she said was authentic.  Everything seemed to be for effect.  Not only with me, but everyone.  She offered to do everything, for everyone, all the time.  Even if she didn't want to.  Even if she was going to complain about that person to anyone who would listen.  She didn't want to look like the bad person.  But there was always the sideways comment.  The little underbelly, passive-aggressive dig.  They snarky looks.  The temper if you called her on anything.  When overt control had no longer work, she went underground.  She started suggesting things, expressing the utmost concern to one brother about another.  Planting seeds.  The phoniness, the disingenuous nature of it all, it all being so much more work than it should've been, always feeling on guard.

And so it pretty much stands today.  Me, walls up, on guard, distanced.  Her always looking for a way to plow through my walls.  Always feeling stalked, and cornered, and bullied.  Lots of false talk and phoniness and shallow relationships.  Lots of attempts at manipulation, offering "trips", "gifts", talking about how they are setting us up financially.

DH and I have come a long way since the beginning.  He hardly ever took my side in the beginning.  If I couldn't get along with his family, then I shouldn't let the door hit me on the way out.  I wondered, briefly, why I put up with it then.  But I know that it's because that's how life had always been.  Get alone, sacrifice, sit down and shut up, or get the hell out.  But he slowly started to listen.  He started to actually believe me.  He put down a lot of his excuses.  He still uses "that's just the way she is.  She won't change.  She doesn't think of it that way.  I'm sure she didn't mean it.  We always tease in our family.  She doesn't think before she acts.  You read too much into her.  You are too sensitive.  You always look for things that aren't there.  She doesn't do that on purpose.  She's just excited/hyper/unorganized."  but I get these excuses far less.  He still jumps to defensiveness, but I can at least rationalize with him once the initial moment has passed.  He is willing to listen to me.   When I presented him with the 25 characteristics of narcissists with detailed notes about how NMIL fit them, he spent over an hour reading them all.  And he believed me.  And said I had some valid points.  It's a long way from the beginning.  But  a long way from where I want to be.  But I'm determined.  I want him to see so he can lay down some of the legacy she's given him.  So he will let go of some of the toxic ways she taught him to be a parent (and for the record, he is an amazing father, but struggles with some of the narcissistic traits and toxic parenting models we all do).  To put down some of his defensiveness.


54 comments:

  1. He still uses "that's just the way she is. She won't change. She doesn't think of it that way. I'm sure she didn't mean it. We always tease in our family. She doesn't think before she acts. You read too much into her. You are too sensitive. You always look for things that aren't there. She doesn't do that on purpose. She's just excited/hyper/unorganized."

    I've been there. These phrases were used on me for over 60 years by my NFOO, but now I recognize them for what they are.

    Denying your reality is abuse, plain and simple.

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    1. Yes, these comments have been hurtful and put a strain on our marriage. I also have recieved them many times when trying to explain MIL to others. I think that it is easier for people to explain things away this way.
      But he is coming coming around. They are becoming less frequent and he is almost always willing to listen to my point of view and accept my feelings. He was so brainwashed to believe this was all normal for so long, that it's been a long way out of the FOG. But I see hope. It has changed. It is getting better.

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  2. I need to read this at nap time.

    I'm with you, Jessie.

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  3. Oh man, so with you, on all of this.

    I have SO many thoughts on all of it.

    I'll start here (At the end, which is an odd place to start. But here we go):

    that's just the way she is - Justification for the way someone has been treating you. Not acceptable.

    She won't change - If not, what are you (DH) going to do differently, do protect yourself and your FOC from her toxic behaviors. If you realize that her behaviors are hurting yourself, your wife, or your children, and that she won't change them, then its up to YOU and YOU alone to make the necessary changes.

    She doesn't think of it that way - Do not purport to know what anyone else is thinking. Ever. Unless they've specifically told you how they feel (and they are a trustworthy person), but even then, do no purport to know how they feel.

    I'm sure she didn't mean it. - Whether she meant it or not doesn't change the fact that it was a bad behavior or that it hurt someone you love. Stop making excuses for her.

    We always tease in our family. - Teasing is just another word for bullying. Teasing is harmful to development of a child's self-esteem. Even if you don't choose to believe that, all you need to know is that the teasing is making someone else (your wife, your child, etc) uncomfortable and it needs to stop.

    She doesn't think before she acts. - Again, how do you know? These all sound like excuses you've heard your whole life and that you have not come to terms with how you were treated. You are justifying your own abuse on top of justifying the abuse of your wife and children.

    You read too much into her. -No such thing. Period. Jessie has every right to assess your mother and her own, and anyone else to comes along purporting to "love" her or "care about her" who is talking the talk but not walking the walk.

    You are too sensitive. - Those are the words of every abuser I have ever seen/known/read about, etc. Treat carefully here.

    You always look for things that aren't there. -Bullshit. If you are looking, it means your gut tells you there is already something wrong. When you have to look, it means that you are aware of the truth and are seeking to validate it.

    She doesn't do that on purpose. -You're giving a KNOWN abuser the benefit of the doubt. If it smells like shit, looks like shit, and is full of shit, it's probably shit. I think it's safer to assume that something WAS done on purpose, especially if similar behaviors keep popping up over and over and over again.

    She's just excited/hyper/unorganized. - More justifications. Not acceptable.

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    1. Jonsi: my voice of reason. Thank you for your comments. These are all excuses. And to be fair to him, he IS changing. But it can be slow going at times. I loved what you said about changing our behavior. This is the one we are working on the most (and where he has stepped up the most). Figuring out how to protect ourselves. It took a long time for him to see this, but it has changed so much that I have hope.
      The damn "too sensitive" thing. I hate this one. It is one of the things that all the people who've said it to me like about me the most. The love that I'm sensitive, caring, and thoughtful until my feelings get trampled on. I believe that being sensitive is a good thing, so to this, I say fuck them.
      The damn teasing thing drives me insane. It is so cruel. Again, DH has come a long way. When I point it out now, he listens and doesn't get all defensive right away. I have been pointing out that hurting someone else to "have fun" is not fun for the victim. This one is important to me because I DO NOT want this happening to my kids. It is one of the biggest reason's I've chosen to tackle all of this NMIL stuff.
      I've explained the "not on purpose" stuff as "if she backed over my foot with a car, it still fucking hurts, even if it wasn't on purpose. And she should apologize and acknowledge the hurt. And if she continues to back over my damn foot, we have a serious problem."
      The one that is still hard for me is the "you're over analyzing things" one. NM does this. She's always searching for hurts that aren't there. She projects that since she's always out to get someone they are always out to get her. I worry that I may have inherited this trait. It's hard for me to gauge when I'm actually seeing things or looking for things.

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    2. "I believe that being sensitive is a good thing, so to this, I say fuck them."

      I agree with you. It IS a wonderful thing to be sensitive. I remember saying once to my mother that DH was just "too nice!" because he let people walk all over him, and that he was "too sensitive!" because he seemed to care way too much about what his parents needed. But my mom reminded me that those are also things that I love about him. He just needs to learn how to be those things without letting people hurt him and his loved ones. A difficult skill to learn, I have no doubt.

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    3. Very true. It's important to be sensitive as it lends itself to your humanity, but you can't be a bleeding heart that lets everyone stomp all over you too. That doesn't do anyone any good. And I've come to conclude too, that if they are able to take advantage of them, I'm probably not doing them any favors in the first place, and it's not what is actually best for them.
      I used to tell my mom that sometimes letting my NSis fall on her ass was the best thing for her. That choosing this was actually the kind, heartfelt thing for her because it would allow her to learn to be her own person. NM still struggles with this, but I've learned to take my own advice somewhat more.

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  4. "And he has asked me, several times, in a very sad way if I hate her. I don't hate her. I've tried to explain that I hate the way she treats me. I hate the way I've never stood up for myself. I hate that he always has dismissed her, excused her, trivialized what I have."

    I hate NMIL. I won't hate on her forever because it's not worth that, but for the time being, I am content in my hatred of her. I don't think it would be wrong for you to hate your NMIL or NM either. I also don't think it would be wrong for your DH to hate his NM as well. I think well-placed hatred can be good because it signifies that you know you've been treated unfairly or poorly.

    I also think that eventually, what a person does crosses over into who they are. Like, the behaviors you describe about your NM and NMIL is evidence of WHO they are. I don't think you can be a truly "good" person and do all those things.

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    1. I agree with you about those behaviors defining someone. Good people can do bad things, but if people are looking at ways to exploit people for their own use, that defines them.

      I may have hated NM and NMIL in the past. I really just don't right now. I just don't have the energy or the desire to devote myself to that. It's too much work. I AM angry. I AM hurt. But hate to me signifies some desire to get even (not suggesting this is how you feel, just how I feel) and I'm not interested in that because it is playing their game. I just want to move on. Protect my kids. She raised my husband. He has a lot of wonderful qualities. He loves her and is not nearly as far along in this process as I am. But he has been very open to it. He is willing to listen and learn and has been interested in my thoughts on the subject. I'm trying not to overwhelm him. And in fact, letting go of a lot of my anger and rage has really released me. Made room back in my head for me.

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    2. "I just want to move on. Protect my kids...I'm trying not to overwhelm [DH]. And in fact, letting go of a lot of my anger and rage has really released me."

      Yes. I understand all of this completely. That's really what this is all about when you get down to the nitty gritty - it's about protecting yourself and your loved ones from people who aim to hurt you and hating all over them won't change any of that. I still think it's an important part of the process, and I think it's good that you've felt such anger with them but are managing it really well.

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    3. Well, managing it really well is subject to the day! And sometimes are better than others. But DH and I have been together for 14 and a half years, married for 11. So, this has been a LONG process for me. There has been a lot of anger, hurt, and hatred along the way. And I agree, it is all a very important part of the process. You have to feel what you have to feel. I think my hate was often turned on myself, though, so I didn't see it as hatred. It came out as depression, overwhelming anxiety and panic attacks at even the thought of seeing my family or DH's family. Lots and lots of truth seeking, honest conversations with myself. And really this "narcissism" thing is new to me. I've been in the process of figure this all out, and I was led (I believe) to the "narcissism diagnosis" when I was most able to use this knowledge. Finding this information out (and reading other's experiences) has changed me in ways, freed me in ways I never thought possible. I have a post planned soon to talk about how this all came about for me, but I have to plan out my writing in bits and spurts when I have time!

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  5. "I had few girlfriends because I rarely trusted them. And the ones I did, I always wound up hurt. Not surprisingly, I was often the third wheel in a trio of friends (hello, NM and NSIS all over!) and I always felt hurt as i was locked on the outside."

    What a fantastic insight, that you are able to see how you were playing out the same role in other relationships in your life. You can't stop that sort of behavior unless you really see that you are doing it in the first place, and you totally get it.

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    1. That one took me a LONG time. I couldn't figure it out. Why I was always the "3rd" friend. When it finally dawned on me, I was relieved. It has changed how I view friendships, and I've been working on creating some friendships with women whom I'm beginning to trust.

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    2. This is definitely something DH needs to work on as well. In the past three years, I have been trying very hard to show him that his "radar" when it comes to choosing friends is REALLY off, and that he seems most attracted to people who will treat him badly. Like, case in point, I got the chills when he told me that one of his female coworkers calls him by his childhood nickname. Like, totally inappropriate, and it gave me the chills because that's what his FOO calls him (still) even though it's a nickname for a little boy. And coming from a coworker, it's just insanely inappropriate.

      He's only just now starting to see that it was his NM (and to a lesser extent, his EF) who taught him how to go out into the world and pick the absolute WORST friends. Either they treat him like his parents did, or else they betray him to his parents eventually. It's crap. Total crap. And I am so tired of people walking all over him, treating him like a child, and exposing him to the world. It's fucking bullshit.

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    3. That's a hard one. NSis struggles with this alot. It's like she has a bullseye on her forehead. But I think that speaks to the point. It's not only that his radar is off, but that people like that are ATTRACTED to HIM. They can smell him from a mile off. I was trying to explain this to my husband the other day as I divulged that my step-mother is also somewhat narcissistic (if not a major control freak.) He kind of smiled in that "you are seeing monsters everywhere now" way. But I told him that it was precisely the fact that I had been raised like that that all these people were attracted TO me. They played out stories in my life for me, but I also helped them play out their repeating stories in their life. Going round and round trying to figure out how to get off the damn ride.
      And ick, ick, ick on the childhood nickname crap. I think that is TOTALLY WEIRD!! Why would someone even feel they had the right to do that? I don't even like it when my FOO or DH's FOO calls me own son the nickname DH and I have for him. It's a forced intimacy. It's piggy backing on something to imply a level of closeness that isn't there.
      And your DH will get there. Blogger Kara from the North Wind wrote in her blog that once she started to heal, those people that were looking to take from her started to disappear. As he gets stronger, feels better, is more certain of things, he will start attracting better people. It's easy to think the whole world is full of assholes when that's all you run into.

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  6. "I got the feeling, early on that that was expected of me. To assimilate."

    Damn, you were playing the exact role they wanted you to play; the "role with our punches" kind of game. You were behaving the way your NM had taught you to behave, fulfilling your "role" in every way, shape, and form; being the dutiful doormat. You weren't being real with them, and you were accepting their abuses and not standing up for yourself.

    I am NOT blaming you. It's clear that this was all before you gathered the strength and courage to fix this, to change, to stop rolling with the punches. I can only imagine how difficult it was for you, because you came from such a similar place and knew nothing else. It just makes it harder to create boundaries later, when there were none to begin with. And when they get away with it for any length of time, it can take three or four times as long to show them that you mean business with your new boundaries.

    Damn, this is so hard.

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    1. Yes, I so regret that I couldn't stand up for myself or defend myself better in the first place. I feel like I'm starting in a damn hole with all of this.

      And I came as a pretty package all wrapped in a bow to NMIL. I was so conditioned to take on my role because I knew nothing else....and in fact, had been punished for not fulfilling my "role". No role = no love. And I was so desperate to fit in and be loved. I wanted a family so badly. I had bounced around a lot like a small boat in a storm, and I was looking for any shelter I could find. And I had been taught that if I disagreed or stood up for myself, I would be abandoned.

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    2. Your NM taught you exactly what DH's NM taught him: that you only have value in what you can do for everyone else. It's so sick, Jessie. And it's so unfair that they did that to you, and then you married into a family with all the same exact theories about life. It's such a hard uphill battle and I feel for you.

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    3. Yes, I sometimes feel sorry for myself and wish I just had one damned family member that was worth a shit. A family member that was supportive and thoughtful and comfortable to be around. Even all of our siblings are so childish and immature. I told this to NM once, and she accused me of acting superior because we are older (we are both the oldest) and saying that those distances will disappear as we get to be adults. Problem is we are all in (or close to) our 30s. We should have adult relationships by now. Relationships that don't run through our parents. Relationships that are mutual and we aren't expected to act as the "parents" to them. But those are the bad days, when I feel sorry for myself (and my kids).

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  7. "I became uncomfortable aware that ALL of me had been discussed by family members while not in my presence. I sucked it up when my boundaries were violated and things were asked of me that I really couldn't afford to give."

    Oh, the boundary violations. I know. There are so many of them. I never put up with them myself, but my DH did, which meant I had to put up with them by proxy. My DH also allowed his NMIL to cross boundaries she shouldn't have been crossing.

    This is a long, hard, painful road. I know all about it.

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    1. Yes, especially when it's been allowed for so long. Not just by me, but in DH's family, if you don't establish boundaries you are not being a "good" family member and being "selfish". Everything is up for grabs and everything is communal. And you're "weird, selfish, snobby, etc." if you protest.
      And now, if I lower my boundaries at all, they come rushing back in like a bulldozer. So, my boundaries have had to be higher than I actually need them to be to give myself breathing room.

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    2. I keep reading/hearing that the only time you need to enforce boundaries with an iron fist is when you're dealing with severely dysfunctional individuals and abusers. Everyone else either respects your boundaries, or else just needs a gentle nudge every once in a while if they've done something that makes you uncomfortable. In relationships where there is mutual respect and unconditional love, this kind of shit rarely, if ever, happens.

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    3. Very, very true. Because boundaries are all about respect.

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  8. "And I went on family vacations and went along with everything and tried to fit in."

    How bizarre! NMIL tried to get us to go on vacation with her too. I refused. Again, DH would have said yes and if I had gone along with it, I'd have been miserable. So I said no and asked him to respect that. I think for a long time, he resented me for it.

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    1. Family vacations are a big thing with NMIL. Her parents did it, so she always wants us to do it. They are usually chaotic train wrecks. She has also suggested that just DH and I meet up with her and EFIL. Um, nope. That is where I drew the line. She wanted to meet up when we had planned a trip to Europe. No way.
      But she did manage to invite herself and the rest of the family along on a vacation husband and I had planned. She was planning on going the next week, but when DH said we were also going, she moved around all her plans. I was angry and miserable.
      She has often demanded that we take trips by offering them up as "gifts". My sibling-in-laws always think this is wonderful, and I've always been the bitch by putting on the brakes. I told MIL I didn't want to do this one vacation over and over. She wanted to all go on a cruise that she "would pay for". Well, in reality, she would pay for the cruise and we would pay for all the rest. When I said we couldn't afford the airfare, she said we should drive to (large city). I said this would still cost money and four extra vacation days. She suggested that we get the trip as a Christmas gift to each other. What a gift! A very expensive gift that I would be miserable with. I also told her that I didn't have that amount of vacation time (and what I should've said, is how dare you DEMAND I spend all my vacation time on YOU). But she takes serious offense that you wouldn't want to spend all your vacations with her and it never would occur to her that we wouldn't. Anyway, so she drops this bomb at Christmas that we all need to start planning as she is getting us all "a cruise" for next Christmas. Everyone else was thrilled. I was seething, as she set me up, knowing how I felt, to rain on her damn parade and everyone else's. Luckily, I didn't ever have to do it (she is all talk a lot of the time and no follow through.)
      Another time she suggested she was going to build a vacation home we "all could share". Um OK. The logistics of that were to ridiculous to consider.
      Her new idea was that when EFIL retires, they will rent a home in Europe for the summer. And we will all come over because we'll "have a place to stay." She acts like this is a big gift to her. Luckily, BIL has wised up and told her this is ridiculous because as nice as a free place to stay is, it's the airfare for us and all of our kids and the food and extras that would brake us. Oh, and she did say we "wouldn't have to spend all your time with me". If that isn't telling.
      She always has some little fricking scheme to get us all together. But that is telling enough. If we really all wanted to spend time together, you shouldn't have to scheme and bait us to do it.

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    2. God. I can't believe how similar all of this is.

      I mean, I can, but, it's like your NM/NMIL and my NMIL are EXACTLY the same: the scheming, the complete lack of follow-through, the lack of details when it comes to all of these "plans," the attempts to get you to promise your time/money/self months or even years in advance. I still remember the crap about her inviting us on a vacation with her: I was still pregnant, DH and I hadn't even had our baby yet, the vacation she was planning was a whole year away, she gave us NO details other than a vague "where," even when pressed for details, she shared NO information directly with me (only with DH) and offered to pay for it, "her treat." I was so uncomfortable with the whole thing. And then, when I asked DH to let her know that we couldn't commit to anything a whole year in advance, and could she please give us more information when it got closer to her little vacation, she agreed and then we never heard about it again. (Likely because we didn't respond the way she wanted us to). It was nothing short of ridiculous. Though, I thought we were rather lucky that she didn't follow through, since I REALLY didn't want to go anyway.

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  9. "And if she could find someone else to do part of it for her, she would."

    YES! I've been saying that about narcs for a long time now. They don't do anything that they can get someone else to do for them. They are the laziest people on earth.

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    1. This applied to so much. Her parenting (she always looked for ways to have others discipline/teach/etc. her kids). Kind of that "it takes a village" approach, but gone a little too far.
      And she is the master at planting seeds in people and then getting them to do the confronting/asking/planning. And then she doesn't have to take the blame and can act an innocent bystander.

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  10. "DH explained that she had it rough with four boys. It was hard to control them."

    Wow. A huge indication that DH has always felt controlled by his NM. And really, when is it ever good to "control" anyone? It's not, of course. It's healthy to "guide" your children, not to control them.

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    1. Very good point. It's interesting how often outsiders have described DH's family as "out of control". She did control them on a very internal level, but externally, they were chaotic, loud, and out of control.
      She was not and is not a guide. She just offers a solution and then expects follow through. I always used to just consider her more "masculine". Like a guy always just wants to fix it and move on. But I'm not making those excuses for her anymore.

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  11. "She never seemed to actually be in control despite always demanding to be in control."

    I've always thought there is a huge difference between being "in control" of a situation, and controlling a person. Two very different things.

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    1. Being "in control" has more to do with your own behavior. Controlling has to do with the other person's behavior. Very different.

      By the way, I love the way you address this all individually. Gives me a change to address it all back individually without forgetting anything! And thanks for all your input.

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    2. I thought it was a good way of attacking everything. I feel this way about ALL of your posts, I just don't have the time to respond like this, the way I'd like to. I think it'll just take time, and I'll keep going back and revisiting old ones.

      Does seem sort of silly, there's like 40 comments on here all from me. But if it helps you, then I'm all for it!

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  12. "He was the shield they all hid behind, allowed themselves to feel "normal" behind."

    Wow. What a great way of putting it. I think that's how DH's FOO think of him now.

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    1. Yeah, like the sacrificial black sheep. If everyone's looking at the black sheep, they can't take any accounting of us.
      Makes for a convenient excuse.
      And by the way, guess who is the shield now? I get the blame A LOT for discourse in the family (although DH doesn't agree). And back to your point a couple of comments ago about not professing to know what someone else is thinking and feeling. This is so ironic, because DH uses this on me a lot when I try to point out some subtly manipulation or underhanded slight. I guess maybe I need to focus on how these behaviors make ME feel, instead of the behavior.

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  13. "Ironically, DH got his season ticket bought for him for his birthday. I had to pay for mine myself. DH always explained it was just that his parents spent less on me for my birthday. I offered it to be my birthday and Christmas present. NMIL always refused. I don't think this was a coincidence or oversite."

    So NOT a coincidence, you're right. The way I see it, they were hoping you wouldn't go at all so that they could have him to themselves, or at the very least, wanted to make it harder for you to go (which hurts the relationship you have with your husband, even if he doesn't realize it). It was also a slap in the face, that HE was "worth" more than you.

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    1. Yep. This one sucked. It took an activity that husband and I loved to do together and made it something that the fun had been sucked out of. Also, I know that she felt it would somehow be a slight to her other "boys" to buy me the ticket and not them. I know, weird fucking logic, but that's what I believe.
      And they would be glad to not have me along. One of my biggest hurts was when DH suggested if his family was so difficult that I didn't have to go along to family activities all the time. He meant it in a way to protect me (I know it must not sound like that). Offer me an out and that he wouldn't take it personally. But I felt so slighted by this. Get me out of the picture and everyone will be fine. Everyone's off being a big ol' family, and I'll just go by myself. I explained this was the easy way out. Instead of standing up and dealing with the damn problem, he was just making it easy for everyone else. And the little smile on NMIL's face as I knew she'd sit around surrounded by everyone SHE loved without having to deal with me made my heart hurt.
      And it pissed me off more than anything, when she felt she had a right to those tickets when I didn't go. She would never have bought it for me, but gladly took it back from me without paying. Like she was doing me some favor by allowing me to "purchase" the tickets.

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    2. "DH suggested if his family was so difficult that I didn't have to go along to family activities all the time. He meant it in a way to protect me (I know it must not sound like that)."

      I know that he meant to protect you, and I also know exactly how shitty that feels. DH suggested that a couple of times too, and my response was exactly the same as yours: It's NOT okay to cut me out of the picture; that's exactly what your mother wants, for me not to be there; you need to deal with this, head on, without making ME the expendable person."

      Just not a healthy way of dealing with the issue, and it's not a fair solution because it totally makes you the expendable party. That's not the way it is supposed to work: Well, mommy hates my wife (even if she pretends not to) so we'll just leave my wife at home.

      Um. No. How about Mommy stops being a bitch or we don't tell her where we're going so she can't sabotage our plans? How about let's call her out on her piss-poor behaviors and demand that she shape the fuck up or ship the fuck out. Let's be loyal to the person we CHOSE to have in our life, rather than the people we did not choose, who are treating us like shit.

      How about that?

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  14. And the snuggling things is just...eww. Gross. Gives me the willies.

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    1. Me too. I thought that was weird. Here's another one for you. When I met DH, they didn't have a TV in the living room. So everyone would go pile in NMIL's bed and watch TV. Everyone (aunts, uncles, cousins). Grossed me the hell out and I refused. I mean, it's one thing to do that with your kids....young kids. But to expect it out of grown adults was gross.

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    2. Um. Yeah. That's disturbing. We aren't stuffed animals.

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  15. "She continued to plan big family vacations and functions and expected us to act as one unit, with her at the helm."

    Oh my god, yes. Yes, as in, I know exactly what you are saying. Been there done that. yes to the entire paragraph, actually. The only difference is that I didn't pretend really, at all, that any of it was okay. I didn't go along with any of it. And she hated me from the beginning, saw me as a threat from the beginning, and had that good old hierarchy set from the beginning. Like, the only personal gifts she EVER got me were not only for show, they were cheap, useless trinkets. She gave DH $200 for his bday, but me nothing. She gave DH a very expensive tool our first xmas together, and gave me a scarf and a small journal that she probably spent $15 on. Ridiculous. And telling. Oh-so-telling.

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    1. I got a Christmas village once. One that I had told her repeatedly I didn't want. But she had one, so I had to. She wanted DH to have a Christmas like she had. Ick.
      I also got a cheap wine glass from a tasting once. You know, like when you go to a winery and get the complimentary wine glass? SIL got one, I got the other. And it was a winery that she "knew I liked" but was really a winery SHE thought I would like.
      I also used to get sets of things broken up. Like one BIL would give me the hat and the other the scarf of a set. Like I wouldn't notice. And it was so obvious that MIL had picked it all out and just slapped their name on it. Made me feel so special. I also got four bottles of the same lotion because I'd said I like it once; I got one from each brother. I was so clear that they always ran to her to get ideas for me.
      Her gifts have never been cheap. She would never let DH think she would do that. And they have gotten better as she tries to "impress" me with her thoughtfulness. The one who really gets screwed is SIL, because she just gets her the same thing she picks out for me.

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    2. Hmm, I think NMIL bought the cheap shit, or nothing at all, or hell maybe even re-gifted crap she didn't want (that's actually what I think the scarf and journal was) because it was a test: would DH say anything? No, he wouldn't dare, because his loyalty was to NMIL. She expected him not to say anything, and worse, not to notice. He didn't notice. He didn't say anything about it. I had to point it out to him. He sees things much clearer now. But it's still a struggle and I still often have to point them out to him. Like you and your DH, this is a long slow process.

      I think for now, you're going to HAVE to be the vigilant one, until your DH is more able to do the same.

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    3. Yeah, that sucks. Because it's easy for DH to use the cop out "I didn't see that. I didn't hear that. You are reading too much into things." blah, blah, blah.

      Very good observation that it was a test. That is exactly what it was. A clever test that she could deny. Like a pedophile slowly grooming a child, taking it one small step at a time. Feeling out the boundaries (her messed up boundaries).

      Luckily I've gotten much better at "refusing" her expensive crap before she buys it for me. She presses, she insists, but I've gotten better at saying 'no thanks'.

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  16. Eeew, to her dressing in a more youthful way. Can you say, love triangle? Like, "Bitch, you stole my boyfriend?" love triangle? She acted like the woman scorned. And that's just disgusting. She sounds like a pedophile.

    "She took my side against DH if I expressed an disagreement. She always took my side." Also bad. This is just as bad as if she took DH's side and badmouthed you to him. It's just more triangulation, trying to divide and conquer you guys.

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    1. yep, and phony, phony, phony.

      The dressing thing always bothered me. She loves her little short skirt. I know someone, somewhere told her that her legs were her best feature, and it stuck. But it seemed she was trying to keep up with her DILs all the time.

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  17. "Lots of attempts at manipulation, offering "trips", "gifts", talking about how they are setting us up financially."

    Yep, narcs love to offer up material things as a way to show their "love." It gives them a great way to trick all of those superficial "friends" they have into believing that YOU are bad for refusing what they offer you.

    And, for the record, DH needs to be on your side ALL THE TIME, every time. Even if he doesn't agree with you, he needs to be on your side. He married you, he chose you, you have children together. It's time to stop defending his NM and start protecting you and your babies.

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    1. I agree with, Jonsi. Time for your DH to stop excusing his mother's dysfunction and step up to the plate by putting HIS wife and family first.

      And here, I'll be brutally honest: Time for you to stop making excuses for your DH.

      Having the support of my late DH was the only thing that kept me sane!

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    2. Yes, another thing we are working on. I've told him, you can disagree with me later, in private. I'm always willing to discuss things. But he has to have my back in public.

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    3. And MF, yes, I need to stop excusing him. I guess I just want to be patient. None of us took all this in and came out of the FOG in a day, and I want to offer him a safe place to do it. It's not easy, as we all know, to look at our mother's for what they are. And as I've seen his progress, his desire to change, accept, and acknowledge, I'm willing to be patient. Not excuse him (and I do need to work on that) but be patient.
      And thanks for your support and honesty MF!

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    4. "But he has to have my back in public."

      Yes. I have said the same to DH. Even if we aren't a damn team, to THEM, we have to at least look like one.

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    5. I'm in AA, where they've taught me about "rigorous honesty". God knows, I didn't grow up with it!

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  18. Would you please remove my name as well?
    Thank you.
    TW

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