Releasing the past in order to find myself

Tuesday, November 27, 2012

I Know What It's Not

PrePost Update : No news on the NSis front.  I haven't had contact since Thanksgiving.  I texted, in response to a text from her, that I needed some time to collect my thoughts and then would have a discussion with her.  She told me that she "respected that".   So, I'm still working on my letter to her, trying to figure out what the hell I want to say.  And as a side note, NM has been quiet.  Very quiet.  Something's stewing in her brain, but I'm unsure what.

So, I've spent a lot of time researching this narcissism thing.  I know the signs.  I understand what it looks like.  I understand what it feels like to be an ACoN.  I understand what a healthy family is NOT supposed to be.

The thing is, I don't know what the hell it is supposed to look like.  What does a healthy family look like?  What does a healthy sibling relationship look like?  I assumed that it would be the opposite of what I had.   I've found it's not that simple.  I'm sure for some of us, it would be the opposite of what they grew up with.   But for me, it's not like that.   I've come across so many ways that a healthy family and an enmeshed/narco-FOO look the same.  I'm struggling to find the dividing line.

I'm struggling to find what a healthy sibling relationship is supposed to be.  How supportive are you supposed to be?  When do you know it's enough?  When do you think it's too little?  I don't have a lot of good role models.  DH and his brothers had an enmeshed or unilateral relationship.  He says he has always felt like the "adult" in the relationship.   Often, the relationships (including with the SILs and between the SILs) has been managed and directed by my MIL.  She likes to assign rolls...and rules, and regulations, and standards.    I told my on NM, recently in fact, that DH and I often feel like we are adults and our siblings seemed so much younger than us.  People who depend on us, expect us to pay for everything, treat us more like parents or older relatives than like contemporaries.  She became stiff and seemed offended and seemed to imply with her tone that I was being a snob or something.  She said something to the effect that that was ridiculous and that as everyone got older, age didn't matter and you all just relate on an "adult" level.   But not one of our siblings relate to us on an adult level.  I've never felt like we were "equal" (and I don't mean that in a snobby way, just that the relationship seemed out of whack.)  I find it ironic that NM could recognize how adult siblings should act towards each other, but didn't see that it wasn't that way at all.

How do you have a close family without being enmeshed?  I see so many, so many, families around me that seem more enmeshed than close.  DH grew up in a "close" community.  They pride themselves on being "family oriented and dedicated to their community".  But something strikes me about it as off.  Lots and lots of people from that community drink far too much.   Lots of people stay stuck in the community and never leave.  And those that do, get sucked back in.  I know that feeling part of the community is good for a lot of the people, but when does it cross the line of becoming unhealthy?   DH looks around and sees a lot of families just like his.  Weird, a bit crazy, but everyone assumes they are "close".   I see DH's family as having an undercurrent of anger and resentment, just below the surface.  I don't see brothers whom are really close and supportive and there for each other.  I see brothers who take from each other because that's what family does, and expect to be granted whatever they ask for.  Brothers that don't acknowledge each other's birthdays (DH only recently quit, after years and years of his brothers' ignoring his birthday).  I see one sided relationships and entitlement.  I see brothers that show up when it's convenient   Which, sometimes, should be how it is right?  They shouldn't have to jump every time someone else in the family says jump, but they should help out sometimes when another needs it.  I don't know.

I want my boys to be close.  My MIL already started pushing my son and his cousin to being "friends".  Lots of relatives make statements assuming they will be close.  It annoys me.  Let the kids grow their own relationships for fuck's sake.  And I want my boys to develop their own relationship with each other.  But I want to encourage them too.  Encourage them to be nice and kind to each other.  I think siblings make good people to "try out" socializing on.  To practice.  But is that wrong of me?  I think it's good for my older son to sometimes assume responsibility for his baby brother; it's good to learn to care for others.  But I don't want him to think it's his job.   I don't want to excuse his baby brother for things, and lay the "you're older and should know better" business.  But I want to make sure I don't let him skate either.  I love that my younger son always makes sure he gets his brother's water bottle too when he get's his own and takes it out to him.  I like him to be compassionate.  But I don't want either one to always have to be worried or care for each other.  Again, with my niece, my in-laws have stated that it'll be great that my son can protect her from boys when she gets older and "watch out for her".  This pisses me off.  Why should she be his job?  I don't want him getting into trouble over her.  But I do think it's good to stick up for your family at times.  Again, I don't know.  I'm just struggling.

What does a healthy relationship with siblings or parents look like to you?  What kinds of things can I encourage between my sons?  What should I avoid?

19 comments:

  1. jessie,
    I identify so much with this idea: what the fuck does a healthy relationship look like, then? I've got countless models of brokenness, but none of wholeness to look on.

    But I have learned this in NC and sobriety: only healthy people can have healthy relationships, because healthy relationships always include space for people to be individuals within them.

    So... that's where I always start. Can these individuals function autonomously within this framework of a relationship?
    If the answer is NO, then I know I'm headed in the wrong direction.

    Yes? Keep exploring the relationship. Lather, rinse, repeat.
    Endlessly, it seems. :)

    Love,
    Vanci

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  2. Thanks Vanci. I particularly like what you said here: "because healthy relationships always include space for people to be individuals within them. "

    I've seen this with my NM and NSis. There is no room for disagreement or discord. It's kind of all or none. If you disagree or (god forbid) fight, than the relationship is over. Which is why neither of them have long term relationships. Oh, and you have to like ALL of someone, or you don't like them at all. That was one of my first healthy steps, to realize, that I don't have to like all of a person, to like them (and I'm not talking about not liking really toxic shit, just like, maybe I don't like someone's take on movies, or I think their jokes are lame.)

    My NMIL does not allow for individuation either. If I saw baking isn't for me, then I'm insulting the fact that she likes to bake. And she pretends she suddenly doesn't like to bake. If she doesn't like something, and I do, she doesn't just see it as individual preference, she sees it as one of us is wrong and the other is right. I often feel like she wants a bunch of little fucking clones.

    Lather, rinse, repeat. Love this. Although, sometimes it would just be nice to stand and let the damn water wash over me. I guess that is naive of me, but it would be nice to just have a relationship that didn't require surveying all the damn time.

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  3. Maybe it's the screwy way I was raised, but I feel like the reason I love my sis so much is because I like the person she is. If she was an asshole, I think I would treat her like any other asshole. If my parents weren't my parents, I don't think I'd struggle at all with letting them go. Then again, we never had what most of society would consider a normal family dynamic.

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    1. In re-reading this post, I don't think I conveyed what I meant to. Just that I have a history of letting go of most relationships very easily EXCEPT my parents. I'm sorry that my post sounds kinda assholey.

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    2. I didn't sound assholey, just a bit confusing. Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense.

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  4. Hey Jessie. You just posed the question that exists for almost every ACoN. If we don't do what we have done then what does this new thing look like? It is not easy. I like the idea of each person having their own opinion but I noticed that they show surprise when I accept their difference. My counselor assured me that with families it is pretty much pick your dysfunction which tells me most families are working through some dynamics that probably started generations before. Healthy probably looks a little different to each person. For me, I am working on deciding how my relationships work, the basis I consider is my relationship with the other person fear based. Do I hug a person because I fear censor or do I hug them because I want to? Do I get together with someone because I feel obligated or just really excited to see them? Just recently one of my kids told me they had to hurry home to beat the storm, only there was no storm coming. Am I such an ogre that she couldn't simply say, "Hey we need to get home?" I think that is part of what I went to counseling for was to learn a new perspective on how to interact with people. Why I read blogs to see what other people are trying. I like the lather, rinse, repeat idea that we need to try something. If it doesn't feel like it is working, take a different approach. I think relationships do get easier when you find what works. I got reminded this weekend that mistakes will still happen and reviewing and resetting boundaries is still needed from time to time. Lots to think about here.

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    1. Thanks Ruth.

      DH often tells me "all families are dysfunctional" as an excuse for our families. I don't like this, as it is an excuse. But, I do imagine it is true to a degreee.

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  5. My counselor described it this way: If both people are happy in the relationship, it's fine. If both people are unhappy in the relationship and want to seek help, it's fine. The problem comes when one person is happy and the other is not because the person who is happy with the relationship as is will do nothing to change it. What's more, there is nothing you can do to help them see the problem. This applies to both healthy and unhealthy relationships.

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    1. Wow, Judy, that seems really on point. Most of my relationships, I am unhappy, and others are happy (at least with themselves in the relationship). My in-laws, in particular, do not want to change from what they've always been and I think that has been a huge stubbling block for us. I felt that we needed to grown and change and develop a relationship together, and they wanted me to form around them.

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  6. I've got lots of answers - not enough time right this second, but I'm coming back here first thing once the little ones are down for a nap!

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  7. Hmm - maybe I'll just write a post and link to your post here for reference and just start offering up some of my experiences. I love the questions you've written up here Jessie.

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  8. Hi Jess,

    In the book "Families and how to survive them" Robyn Skinner said that psychology and psychiatry seemed to have focused on what was wrong with people but there were comparatively few studies on healthy families. So I guess that's the next step, isn't it? To find out what healthy is. I'll do some research and see what I find. Also my friend Belle is probably the healthiest person I have ever met in real life and I was already thinking of writing a post about her so I'll try to do that as soon as I can.

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    1. Thanks Kara. I would love to read about Belle and hear your thoughts. Hope you are well.

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  9. I'm thinking it's about respect? Respecting others boundaries and allowing them to express their feelings and thoughts without someone else in the family judging them or trying to change them. Freedom to be yourself and autonomy.

    Q's Sis

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  10. I also grew up hearing that all families are crazy (laugh, ha ha ha) and that was said as a way to minimize and dismiss how very unhealthy and dysfunctional our family was. I'm sure all families do have their issues, but honestly, I have tried and I can not think of a single person in my extended family (grandparents on down) who is a healthy, functioning person. I also have no role models. And the scary thing is, if I stay on this path to seeing the truth and fighting to live a good life, not enmeshed with my parents and feeling free and independent in my life and comfortable in my skin, that will make me the odd one out in my family. If I'm emotionally healthy and reasonably successful, I will probably be shunned. I am already on thin ice for not going along with as much of the bullshit anymore. How depressing.

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    1. It is hard and can be depressing. Stay on the path though Kristine. Would you rather be the odd one out and be happy, or "belong" with your family and die a slow, miserable death of unhealthiness? That's the question for all ACoNs an will be one you will have to decide for yourself. Sending you strength.

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    2. Exactly right, Jessie! Part of this process, difficult as it is, is choosing myself and choosing a good life for myself over belonging, or over my family, if it comes to that. I just have to believe that my survival is number one, and everything else - including my family members being in my life - is optional. In my case I literally mean survival, because I have been knee-deep in eating disorder issues since I was a teenager, and I'm now in my late 30s and it HAS to stop. That is what I'm really working on, thinking I'm worth it, no matter how they make me feel sometimes. Thanks for the strength Jessie, and back at you. :)

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  11. I've had the same questions too - what does a healthy family/relationship look like. I am reading the book Kara suggested above. It is interesting to see how healthy families handle situations. Healthy families go through all the same 'stuff' we go through - anger, frustrations, jealously but they process and handle it differently. They are allowed to handle it and not disguise it or feel the need to disguise it or hide it. I would like to understand the questions you have asked - the answers to them. xxoo T Reddy

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